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Draft minutes of TAG telcon of 2011-01-20 available

From: Yves Lafon <ylafon@w3.org>
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 16:13:30 -0500 (EST)
To: www-tag@w3.org
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.1101301610030.8852@wnl.j3.bet>
...online at

  http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/01/13-minutes.html

and for vt-100 users...


                                - DRAFT -

                           TAG teleconference

20 Jan 2011

    [2]Agenda

       [2] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/01/20-agenda

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2011/01/20-tagmem-irc

Attendees

    Present
           Jonathan_Rees, Larry_Masinter, TV_Raman, Noah_Mendelsohn,
           Ashok_Malhotra, Dan_Appelquist, Yves_Lafon, Henry_Thompson,
           John_Kemp

    Regrets

    Chair
           Noah

    Scribe
           Yves

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]approval of minutes
          2. [6]administrative items
          3. [7]Overdue Action Items
          4. [8]Web Application State
          5. [9]overdue action
          6. [10]AOB?
      * [11]Summary of Action Items
      _________________________________________________________

    <jar> Scribe: Yves

    Agenda for next week will include 'mime on the web' document

    no regrets

    jar to scribe

approval of minutes

    RESOLUTION: Minutes of 14 january 2011 (
    [12]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/01/13-minutes ) are approved

      [12] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/01/13-minutes

administrative items

    status report has been published

    f2f is in 3 weeks, need to work on the agenda

    <DKA> I will be there.

    yves will participate remotely

    the meeting room will be announced

    <noah> ACTION: Noah to do F2F local arrangements [recorded in
    [13]http://www.w3.org/2011/01/20-tagmem-irc]

      [13] http://www.w3.org/2011/01/20-tagmem-irc

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-512 - Do F2F local arrangements [on Noah
    Mendelsohn - due 2011-01-27].

    <noah> ACTION: Noah to do F2F agenda [recorded in
    [14]http://www.w3.org/2011/01/20-tagmem-irc]

      [14] http://www.w3.org/2011/01/20-tagmem-irc

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-513 - Do F2F agenda [on Noah Mendelsohn -
    due 2011-01-27].

    <noah> ACTION-511?

    <trackbot> ACTION-511 -- Larry Masinter to send email framing TAG
    work on registries -- due 2011-01-20 -- OPEN

    <trackbot> [15]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/511

      [15] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/511

    Possible topics for the f2f might include... client-side storage,
    ietf prague meeting and related issues, persistent domain and
    Larry's tdb, HTML-XML with Norm Walsh, registries (see action-511),
    also 10th anniversary of the TAG

    <DKA> How about: deep linking?

    jar: time to talk about AWWSW

    <Larry> architecture of the world wide semantic web

    DKA: widget and offline applications, trying to unify approaches
    taken in widget, webapps and HTML5's appcache

    <jar> action-201?

    <trackbot> ACTION-201 -- Jonathan Rees to report on status of AWWSW
    discussions -- due 2011-01-25 -- OPEN

    <trackbot> [16]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/201

      [16] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/201

    Noah: might be good to have an email discussion to start work on
    this topic

    DKA: also API minimization

    <Larry> TAG products: W3C architecture web site. Meet with W3C staff
    (Jaffee, others) to talk about TAG products, involvement with WG
    chartering & architecture

    Noah: same, we need an email to frame discussions

    <DKA> +1

    DKA was +1ing meeting with Jeff or Ian

    <DKA> Lunch with Jeff might be a good idea.

Overdue Action Items

    DKA: a few AI needs to be retired

    <noah> ACTION-390?

    <trackbot> ACTION-390 -- Daniel Appelquist to review ISSUE-58 and
    suggest next steps -- due 2010-10-18 -- OPEN

    <trackbot> [17]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/390

      [17] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/390

    DKA: we need to figure out how to make progress on this issue

    <Larry> issue-59 is related to deep linking

    Yves: There was a discussion after Wilileaks denial of service. Is
    this related to such resilience issues?

    <Larry> taking the direction on ISSUE-58 like "deep linking", we
    could document what we know about the issue and what the
    considerations are, and write a "best practices" around it

    <Zakim> ht, you wanted to talk about w3c persistent resources

    DKA: agree that it makes sense

    <jar> ... and P2P HTTP

    <Larry> or even a blog post

    ht: we can have a slot even a small one on that topic of the f2f, I
    made an XML Catalog and handed that over to the systeam, need to
    track progress there.

    <Zakim> Larry, you wanted to suggest a "note"

    we can ask Ted Guild to join for a few minutes on that topic

    Larry: it is appropriate to do a note, a blog post or something like
    that to close the action (re: issue-58)

    Noah: we don't have consensus yet on the resolution

    <Larry> I think it's possible to document the divergent opinions and
    note that there isn't consensus, and that doing so is a valuable
    exercise

    DKA: if we can't agree during the f2f on progress there, we should
    drop it.

    Larry: I disagree that we need consensus on solutions to make
    progress on documenting the problem and possible solutions

    <DKA> I could change the name of the action to "write up a problem
    statement definition draft" prior to the f2f.

    <noah> ACTION-439?

    <trackbot> ACTION-439 -- Daniel Appelquist to introduce
    signature-based approaches to access control -- due 2010-10-14 --
    OPEN

    <trackbot> [18]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/439

      [18] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/439

    Larry: it's the same issue in "Mime and the Web", not sure about
    solutions, but it's valuable to outline the issues

    <Larry> +1 DKA if you would do so

    DKA: action 439 should be dropped

    <noah> close ACTION-439

    <trackbot> ACTION-439 Introduce signature-based approaches to access
    control closed

    <noah> ACTION-461?

    <trackbot> ACTION-461 -- Daniel Appelquist to draft "finding" on Web
    Apps API design -- due 2010-12-31 -- OPEN

    <trackbot> [19]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/461

      [19] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/461

    <noah> ACTION-488?

    <trackbot> ACTION-488 -- Daniel Appelquist to solicit at TPAC
    perspectives on what TAG could/should do on APIs Due: 2010-11-09 --
    due 2010-10-28 -- OPEN

    <trackbot> [20]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/488

      [20] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/488

    DKA: we should convert this action to a concrete one on API
    minimization

    Noah: if we decide to do a more general finding on web apps API then
    we should keep this one

    DKA: After Lyon's meeting, I think that we need to work on smaller
    issues

    <noah> ACTION: Appelquist to draft finding on API minimization Due:
    2011-02-01 recorded in [21]http://www.w3.org/2011/01/20-tagmem-irc]

      [21] http://www.w3.org/2011/01/20-tagmem-irc

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-514 - Draft finding on API minimization
    Due: 2011-02-01 [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2011-01-27].

    <noah> close ACTION-461

    <trackbot> ACTION-461 Draft "finding" on Web Apps API design closed

    <noah> ACTION-480?

    <trackbot> ACTION-480 -- Daniel Appelquist to draft overview
    document framing Web applications as opposed to traditional Web of
    documents Due: 2010-11-01 -- due 2010-11-09 -- OPEN

    <trackbot> [22]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/480

      [22] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/480

    <noah> ACTION-480 Due 2011-02-01

    <trackbot> ACTION-480 Draft overview document framing Web
    applications as opposed to traditional Web of documents Due:
    2010-11-01 due date now 2011-02-01

    <noah> ACTION-484?

    <trackbot> ACTION-484 -- Daniel Appelquist to alert chairs,
    ac-forum, www-tag of TAG availability for Monday session at TPAC --
    due 2010-10-27 -- OPEN

    <trackbot> [23]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/484

      [23] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/484

    <noah> close ACTION-484

    <trackbot> ACTION-484 Alert chairs, ac-forum, www-tag of TAG
    availability for Monday session at TPAC closed

    <noah> ACTION-488?

    <trackbot> ACTION-488 -- Daniel Appelquist to solicit at TPAC
    perspectives on what TAG could/should do on APIs Due: 2010-11-09 --
    due 2010-10-28 -- OPEN

    <trackbot> [24]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/488

      [24] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/488

    <noah> close ACTION-488

    <trackbot> ACTION-488 Solicit at TPAC perspectives on what TAG
    could/should do on APIs Due: 2010-11-09 closed

    <noah> ACTION-489?

    <trackbot> ACTION-489 -- Daniel Appelquist to prepare early draft of
    TAG thoughts on implications of Evercookie. Due: 2010-12-08 -- due
    2010-10-28 -- OPEN

    <trackbot> [25]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/489

      [25] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/489

    <Larry> i think this is subsumed by privacy actions

    DKA: might be linked to action-509, so we should close 489

    Larry: the problems that evercookie explore are not covered by web
    architecture

    like cleaning local storage for cookies

    Noah: how about client-side storage work from Ashok?
    ... Evercookie is client-side storage

    Larry: it's not explicit client-side storage, as it uses
    fingerprinting
    ... we need to make sure that client-side storage work mention
    evercookie

    <noah> ACTION-475?

    <trackbot> ACTION-475 -- Ashok Malhotra to write finding on
    client-side storage, DanA to review -- due 2011-03-21 -- OPEN

    <trackbot> [26]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/475

      [26] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/475

    Ashok's action amended to reflect that

    <noah> close ACTION-489?

    <noah> close ACTION-489

    <trackbot> ACTION-489 Prepare early draft of TAG thoughts on
    implications of Evercookie. Due: 2010-12-08 closed

    <noah> close ACTION-495

    <trackbot> ACTION-495 Organize something with Geo for Friday
    morning. closed

    <noah> ACTION-505?

    <trackbot> ACTION-505 -- Daniel Appelquist to start a document wrt
    issue-25 -- due 2010-12-09 -- OPEN

    <trackbot> [27]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/505

      [27] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/505

    <noah> ISSUE-25?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-25 -- What to say in defense of principle that deep
    linking is not an illegal act? -- open

    <trackbot> [28]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/25

      [28] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/25

    DKA: document started, quite empty for now

    need to start an email discussion on what we should put there

    <DKA> [29]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/rightToLink.html

      [29] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/rightToLink.html

    Noah: how about bumping the due date and have an action to start
    discussion?

    <noah> ACTION-505 Due 2011-01-25

    <trackbot> ACTION-505 Start a document wrt issue-25 due date now
    2011-01-25

    <noah> ACTION-507?

    <trackbot> ACTION-507 -- Daniel Appelquist to with Noah to suggest
    next steps for TAG on privacy -- due 2011-01-19 -- OPEN

    <trackbot> [30]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/507

      [30] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/507

    Noah: should we discuss this at the f2f?

    DKA: bump the due date after the f2f

    <noah> ACTION-507 Due 2011-03-01

    <trackbot> ACTION-507 With Noah to suggest next steps for TAG on
    privacy due date now 2011-03-01

Web Application State

    everybody read this week or last week's version of the document

    [31]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/01/HashInURI-20110115

      [31] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/01/HashInURI-20110115

    Ashok: I will work on Yves' comment on the next version of the
    document.
    ... We need to work on what we want to recommend
    ... actually sections 4 and 5

    Noah: it would be great to discuss the pro and cons of the two main
    solutions

    Ashok: when I asked why they were using one solution r the other, I
    got back "it's how they did it" as a reply

    Noah: we might change the title of the document as mentionning the
    hash sigh seems like implementation detail

    Larry: wondering if we are looking at this through the right side of
    the telescope. We need to say "how do you design an app that will
    use URIs in a meaningful way"

    from the point of view, not of the user, but of the implementer.

    Noah: in agreement
    ... things like being able to email an URI that will convey the
    right meaning in the context of email and not the JS program

    The document should answer questions like when to use # sign or ?

    Larry: as a user you don't have the choice, it's the app designer
    who make this decision

    <Zakim> ht, you wanted to try to uplevel even further

    ht: we might go even higher up. People are building application for
    web brwosers to have apps on the desktop. The crucial bit of advice
    is about choosing uri for wide use. But it's also possible to have
    names that are not used for wide distributon

    <noah> HT: Not all of these names are meant for wide use

    <noah> Google maps names >are< intended for wide use

    ht: ex, in emacs, my message number are local only
    ... the fact that web software make easy to create uris for that is
    generating the issue, like using numbering that is not meant for
    broadcast

    Yves: Responding to Larry's point on talking to designers. My note
    talked in part about implementation details such as ability to push
    something into a CDN because you used #, has an impact.
    ... I agree we need high level views, but implementation details are
    important too

    Ashok: I had a paragraph related to the CNN use case where they
    create private URIs

    <Zakim> noah, you wanted to say I want to emphasize names that are
    meant for wide use

    <Ashok> Noah: yes, some states/URIs are private but sometimes these
    are used in other contexts ... so be careful

    Noah: while application can have pprivate state changes, it may be
    an issue that apps are choosing private URIs for things that needs a
    wider audience, like email identifier

    <Zakim> johnk, you wanted to wonder whether we should include the
    usage of # to hide metadata from the Referer usage in this document?

    <johnk> [32]http://waterken.sourceforge.net/web-key/#where

      [32] http://waterken.sourceforge.net/web-key/#where

    john: value before the # can be used for ACL and value after the #
    can be used locallly as not sent to the server

    <johnk> example URI:
    <[33]https://www.example.com/app/#mhbqcmmva5ja3>

      [33] https://www.example.com/app/#mhbqcmmva5ja3>

    Noah: Ashok, will you rearrange all the architectural questions?
    (general ones and ones under the CNN example)

    Ashok: will work on that

    <Ashok> I agree

    Noah: between sections 3 and 4 would be ideal

    Ashok: I will write (at worst possible changes, if not all changes)
    before the f2f

    <Ashok> Yves, comments most welcome

    <noah> ACTION-481 Due 2011-03-01

    <trackbot> ACTION-481 Update client-side state document with help
    from Raman due date now 2011-03-01

    Yves: In MediaFragment, If you're using # for video addressing,
    you're implying the secondary is part of the primary

    <noah> Doesn't that actually depend on the media type registration
    for the video type?

    <ht> [34]http://www.example.org/tool?param=7 is _intimately_ related
    to [35]http://www.exmaple.org/tool !

      [34] http://www.example.org/tool?param=7
      [35] http://www.exmaple.org/tool

    <Zakim> ht, you wanted to disagree with Yves!

    Ashok: I mentionned issues with relations to byte ranges as well

    Yves: In the case of ?, the with-parameter version has nothing to do
    with the w/o the parameter version, for the client

    HT: Did you mean that in the ? mark case the resources have nothing
    to do with each other?

    Yves: Yes

    ht: there is a difference between being 'by the book' not related
    and the reality, like [36]http://www.example.com/USA/ma/bos/xxx and
    [37]http://www.example.com/USA/ma/bos

      [36] http://www.example.com/USA/ma/bos/xxx
      [37] http://www.example.com/USA/ma/bos

    Larry: what would be the relation there?

    ht: it identify a parameter fonction

    Larry: which things are generic to URIs and which things are
    http-related?

    <noah> So [38]http://example.org/stuffcontainer?thingid={GUID} is
    bad practice? I don't believe that.

      [38] http://example.org/stuffcontainer?thingid=

    <noah> The point of this example is that GUID1 and GUID2 might
    denote quite unrelated resources.

    <Larry> does this apply only to "http:" or to all URIs?

    <Larry> there is a relationship between scheme://host/path and
    scheme://host/path?query in that the query can be created by a form
    with scheme://host/path as the target

    <ht> As far as I am concerned, I thought the http spec. _did_
    enforce that foo.html?a=b and foo.html?c=d and foo.html all are
    handled by the same 'resource'. . .

    noah: my concern is that using '#' sign is not a indication that
    it's a part of the resource without the '#' sign

    <Larry> note that mime-web-info talks about defining fragment
    identifiers....

    Yves: My comment was on the media fragments, and in that specific
    case there are some loose ends on media type registration

    <noah> [39]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/overdue

      [39] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/overdue

overdue action

    <noah> ACTION-381?

    <trackbot> ACTION-381 -- Jonathan Rees to spend 2 hours helping Ian
    with [40]http://www.w3.org/standards/webarch/ -- due 2011-01-17 --
    OPEN

      [40] http://www.w3.org/standards/webarch/

    <trackbot> [41]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/381

      [41] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/381

    <noah> ACTION-381 Due 2011-02-11

    <trackbot> ACTION-381 Spend 2 hours helping Ian with
    [42]http://www.w3.org/standards/webarch/ due date now 2011-02-11

      [42] http://www.w3.org/standards/webarch/

    Noah: let's put that on the best-effort list

    <noah> ACTION-390?

    <trackbot> ACTION-390 -- Daniel Appelquist to review ISSUE-58 and
    suggest next steps -- due 2010-10-18 -- OPEN

    <trackbot> [43]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/390

      [43] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/390

    <noah> Yves will contribute on ACTION-390

    <noah> ACTION-390 Due 2011-03-01

    <trackbot> ACTION-390 Review ISSUE-58 and suggest next steps due
    date now 2011-03-01

AOB?

    none

    ADJOURNED

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: Appelquist to draft finding on API minimization Due:
    2011-02-01 recorded in [44]http://www.w3.org/2011/01/20-tagmem-irc]
    [NEW] ACTION: Noah to do F2F agenda [recorded in
    [45]http://www.w3.org/2011/01/20-tagmem-irc]
    [NEW] ACTION: Noah to do F2F local arrangements [recorded in
    [46]http://www.w3.org/2011/01/20-tagmem-irc]

      [44] http://www.w3.org/2011/01/20-tagmem-irc
      [45] http://www.w3.org/2011/01/20-tagmem-irc
      [46] http://www.w3.org/2011/01/20-tagmem-irc

    [End of minutes]
      _________________________________________________________


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-- 
Baroula que barouleras, au tiéu toujou t'entourneras.

         ~~Yves
Received on Sunday, 30 January 2011 21:13:32 GMT

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