- From: Jonathan Rees <jar@creativecommons.org>
- Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 15:34:18 -0400
- To: www-tag@w3.org
are now online at
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/08/04-minutes
and in plain text below.
Best
Jonathan
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
Technical Architecture Group Weekly
04 Aug 2011
[2]Agenda
[2] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/08/04-agenda
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-tagmem-irc
Attendees
Present
Jonathan_Rees, Peter_Linss, Noah_Mendelsohn, Ashok_Malhotra,
Henry_S._Thompson, Larry_Masinter
Regrets
Chair
Noah Mendelsohn
Scribe
Jonathan Rees
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]Convene
2. [6]Approve minutes of prior meeting(s)
3. [7]Administrative items
4. [8]Planning for Sept. 2011 F2F
* [9]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
<scribe> scribenick: jar
<scribe> scribe: Jonathan Rees
<noah> Jonathan, thanks for noticing the scribing. Meant to give you
a heads-up.
Convene
Approve minutes of prior meeting(s)
noah: Did minutes of 14th get approved at last meeting? Not clear in
minutes of the 21st
(minutes of 21st not discussed today)
Administrative items
<noah> Summer schedule
[10]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/coordination/Summer2011Availability.x
ls
[10] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/coordination/Summer2011Availability.xls
Looking at meeting scheduling.
noah: Wait until Sept 1? But that's a long way off, and we have a
F2F coming up
(looking at regrets spreadsheet)
<ht> What about 11 Aug?
noah: Let's talk about the 11th at the end of today's call
(discussion of hotels in Edinburgh)
ht: Consider B&Bs
plinss: A few weeks ago I found lots of hotels full
Planning for Sept. 2011 F2F
<noah> [11]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/
[11] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/
HTML5 LC review (product). Due date yesterday
noah: that one seems set for now. next:...
... Fragids and mime types
<noah> Product page for fragids:
[12]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/fragids.html
[12] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/fragids.html
<ht> I can either have headphones or mike :-(
<ht> Hold on
<noah> We claimed we would produce a TAG Finding at year end 2011,
is that right?
ACTION-567?
<trackbot> ACTION-567 -- Jeni Tennison to draft a document
describing problems around fragids and ways things should be changed
-- due 2011-06-28 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [13]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/567
[13] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/567
<noah> We should add [an appropriate] document pointer to the
product page.
<noah> Look for F2F minutes?
<noah> HT: I think that's reasonable. Not sure whether either of us
can prepare anything for F2F.
noah: Wondering if Jeni's RDFa/microdata obligations will interfere
... HT, any chance of progress in Aug?
<noah> [14]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/06/07-minutes.html#item01
[14] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/06/07-minutes.html#item01
<noah> <trackbot> ACTION-543 -- Jeni Tennison to propose addition to
MIME/Web draft to discuss sem-web use of fragids not grounded in
media type -- due 2011-06-15 -- OPEN
<noah> <trackbot>
[15]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/543
[15] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/543
<noah> This might be what Jeni prepared:
[16]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011May/0089.html
[16] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011May/0089.html
jar: right.
ht: Peter and I are more likely to succeed if there's something to
work from [is it message 0089?]
... Whatever I do I'd like to do well, and I only have capacity to
do one thing well (before F2F)
plinss: I can probably kick in and help, ...
<noah> NM: Peter, can you join Henry and Jeni on ACTIONS-543 and
ACTION-567?
<noah> PL: Yes, willing to try.
<noah> HT: Not sure what to do.
<noah> NM: My priority is making real progress at the F2F so we can
have a finding in Dec. Can HT, PL and Jeni tell me in a week or so
how they recommend doing that?
<noah> HT: Yes.
<Larry> The MIME stuff is a little chaotic and hard to sort out what
to do next giving what's going on in IETF
<Larry> I think the "Fragment Identifiers and MIME types" product
needs changes to coordinate, but I'm not entirely sure what the
right milestones are
<noah> Larry: please work with Henry, Peter, and Jeni on that.
<noah> [Moving on: Let's look at next thing in]
[17]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/
[17] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/
<noah> [18]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/clientsidestate.html
[18] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/clientsidestate.html
<noah> New draft from Ashok:
[19]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/IdentifyingApplicationState-20110
715.html
[19] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/IdentifyingApplicationState-20110715.html
<noah> Stated goal is: 1 Sept 2011: Last-call quality draft
noah: How does your [Ashok's] latest relate to a future LC draft?
ashok: [scribe missed...] All please review what's already there
noah: I wanted you to look at a blog post I wrote a while back
<noah> From my blog entry:
[20]http://blog.arcanedomain.com/2011/03/identifying-documents-in-we
b-applications/
[20] http://blog.arcanedomain.com/2011/03/identifying-documents-in-web-applications/
<noah> A couple of bits of advice were given:
<noah> "Use of AJAX implementation technology is not a sufficient
excuse for failing to provide first class URI identification for
documents on the Web"
<noah> Maybe or maybe not: "Where practical, model your application
as a collection of documents, each with its own URI"
<Larry> maybe there's some more positive and actionable
recommendation?
ashok: the second one, we should talk about. first looks ok, but I'd
state it a bit differently
noah: Please incorporate some of what I wrote into the document?
ashok: I can do that
<Larry> "When using Ajax/dynamic application state, application
designers SHOULD also provide first class URI identification for
'document' view of application state"
<noah> ACTION: Ashok to add text covering advice equivalent to "Use
of AJAX implementation technology is not a sufficient excuse for
failing to provide first class URI identification for documents on
the Web" recorded in [21]http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-tagmem-irc]
[21] http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-tagmem-irc
<trackbot> Created ACTION-586 - Add text covering advice equivalent
to "Use of AJAX implementation technology is not a sufficient excuse
for failing to provide first class URI identification for documents
on the Web" [on Ashok Malhotra - due 2011-08-11].
masinter: Make it positive and actionable.
noah: Positive is good
<noah> ACTION-458 Due 2011-09-01
<trackbot> ACTION-458 Schedule discussion of followup actions for
TAG to coordinate with IETF on MIME-type related activities due date
now 2011-09-01
<Larry> maybe this is really advice for application framework
designers
<noah> ACTION-481?
<trackbot> ACTION-481 -- Ashok Malhotra to update client-side state
document with help from Raman -- due 2011-09-10 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [22]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/481
[22] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/481
<Larry> for example... is this something that could/should be built
into jQuery?
<noah> URI Definition and Discovery
<noah> Product page:
[23]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/defininguris.html
[23] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/defininguris.html
<noah> I added link to
[24]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/awwsw/issue57/20110625/
[24] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/awwsw/issue57/20110625/
<noah> NM: Did you get comments?
<noah> JAR: I got a few good comments, but thought I would get more.
<noah> HT: Well, it's still in my high priority queue
<Ashok> Slipped below my radar
<noah> JAR: There was a big flame war [on public-lod], I'm a little
surprised/disappointed that folks who were participating in that
discussion haven't weighed in.
<noah> JAR: I did have a good exchange with Ian Davis.
<noah> JAR: We probably need a meeting or phone call to get the
progress we need.
<noah> HT: Will people wake up if they feel threatened by a mandated
solution?
<noah> JAR: That was my plan in Feb. That could still be one way to
go.
<noah> JAR: [I've been thinking about] next steps of getting
practical resolution of problems, as opposed to focusing on the
document.
<noah> Success criteria
<noah> Uptake
<noah> Technical interoperability of RDF used for metadata with RDF
used for linked data
noah: Could TAG members read & comment on the draft before the F2F?
<noah> JAR: I'd like TAG members to read two things before the F2F.
1) I will revise
[25]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/awwsw/issue57/20110625/ before last
week of August -- asking TAG members to read the revision for the
F2F
[25] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/awwsw/issue57/20110625/
<noah> 2) I will do a new document dealing with the metadata side of
this.
<noah> I think JAR is disappointed to find that many of the people
who have been vocal on these subjects over the years didn't weigh in
with comments on his draft.
<noah> The metadata document will be related to ISSUE-63.
<noah> ACTION-579?
<trackbot> ACTION-579 -- Jonathan Rees to solicit review of issue-57
(definition discovery) document from readers of public-lod and/or
semantic-web lists [self-assigned] -- due 2011-06-30 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [26]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/579
[26] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/579
(1) definition discovery (303 / #) , (2) referring to documents on
the web (info resource)
(1) and (2) are unrelated logically, but competing over syntactic
space. so need to look at both
<Larry> I would reword the names of these
<noah> close ACTION-579
<trackbot> ACTION-579 Solicit review of issue-57 (definition
discovery) document from readers of public-lod and/or semantic-web
lists [self-assigned] closed
<Larry> I don't like "Definition" as what is being discovered.
"Intention of meaning by party A in the following communication
scenario"
<Larry> it isn't "what is being defined", it is "by whom "
<noah> LM: It's a communication act.
action jar to prepare issue-57 and issue-63 documents for TAG
members to discuss at Sept F2F due 2011-08-23
<trackbot> Created ACTION-587 - Prepare issue-57 and issue-63
documents for TAG members to discuss at Sept F2F due 2011-08-23 [on
Jonathan Rees - due 2011-08-11].
<noah> ACTION-587?
<trackbot> ACTION-587 -- Jonathan Rees to prepare issue-57 and
issue-63 documents for TAG members to discuss at Sept F2F -- due
2011-08-23 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [27]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/587
[27] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/587
<noah> Next up from [28]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/ is
Mime/Web
[28] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/
<noah> Product page at:
[29]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/mimeweb.html
[29] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/mimeweb.html
<noah> Schedules:
<noah> Note: a preliminary draft report was published by Norm Walsh
on 22 March 2011
<noah> 30 September 2011: Report finalized
<noah> 30 September 2011: TAG achieves success criteria set out
above, and identifies further goals and next steps, if any
(still in F2F planning topic)
<noah> [30]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/mimeweb.html
[30] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/mimeweb.html
<noah> Success criteria
<noah> The TAG will publish (or ensure that others have published)
analyses explaining the areas in which use of Mime on the Web is
proving problematic, and will suggest concrete steps for resolving
problems where they are found.
<noah> The TAG will liase with the IETF and other concerned parties
to resolve these issues
<noah> The TAG, working with others as appropriate, will document
the solutions that are agreed by the community, and will highlight
areas in which unresolved problems remain.
larry: Haven't figured out what the right thing to do is
<noah> Current deliverable commitment:
<noah> Key deliverables with dates:
<noah> 31 December 2011: Final TAG Report on MIME architecture, most
likely in the form of an Internet Draft
<noah> Note that drafts are being published at:
[31]http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-masinter-mime-web-info
[31] http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-masinter-mime-web-info
<Larry> I got serious feedback from John Klensin (who also reported
from Ned Freed) that they didn't think the
draft-masinter-mime-web-info document was "helpful"
larry: couldn't get more detail than that
<noah> OK, so I think that means we need to think about whether this
work remains a top priority for us.
larry: Doc talks about 3 things that should probably be separated. 1
what's wrong with the content (what's in the entries). 2. the
process around registration - problem with unregistered types or
wrong registrations. happy-iana forum
... 3. significant issues around mime sniffing, and what happens
when the content is malformed
... Maybe the three problems will get fixed in different forums. web
security WG, mime registration, happy IANA
<noah> Do you have a sense of whether your document was useful to
those working on any of these 3 areas?
larry: We might need to coordinate our efforts in 3 different ways
... "not helpful" might have had to do with document not teasing
apart the 3 issues
ashok: Maybe there should be a checklist for what registrations have
to cover?
<Larry>
[32]http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-freed-media-type-regs-00
[32] http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-freed-media-type-regs-00
<Larry> that document has the checklist in it
<Larry> if that checklist is inadequate, we should get it updated
<Larry> perhaps we've done enough to get things going that we can
declare success
noah: Need to figure out priority. If continues high, maybe revise
our deliverables list.
larry: We may have done enough to kick off other efforts already,
thus reducing the need for what we had originally proposed
noah: Look at what we said (product page)...
<Larry> there's another event, which is the change of the default
charset for text/ MIME types in the HTTP spec and in MIME itself
<noah> Success criteria
<noah> The TAG will publish (or ensure that others have published)
analyses explaining the areas in which use of Mime on the Web is
proving problematic, and will suggest concrete steps for resolving
problems where they are found.
<noah> LM: We did that.
<noah> "The TAG will liase with the IETF and other concerned parties
to resolve these issues"
<noah> LM: We've done some work on that, should do more.
<noah> LM: Should review documents prepared by others, e.g. the
Freed (sp?) document
larry: We did the 1st thing (published an analysis). Maybe do a bit
more on 2nd thing, e.g. review Freed document. and the sniffing
document.
<noah> "The TAG, working with others as appropriate, will document
the solutions that are agreed by the community, and will highlight
areas in which unresolved problems remain."
<noah> LM: We need to ensure others are doing.
larry: We need to ensure that solutions are documented (we don't
necessarily need to do the documenting)
noah: Let's schedule this for September.
... Where we've changed a goal, let's leave some tracks [for
accountability]
<Larry> i'll take an action item to prepare for TAG F2F with a list
of documents to review
<noah> ACTION: Noah to work with Larry to update mime-web product
page Due 2011-08-18 [recorded in
[33]http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-tagmem-irc]
[33] http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-tagmem-irc
<trackbot> Created ACTION-588 - Work with Larry to update mime-web
product page Due 2011-08-18 [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2011-08-11].
<noah> ACTION-568?
<trackbot> ACTION-568 -- Noah Mendelsohn to draft note for Jeff
Jaffe listing 5 top TAG priorities as trackable items. -- due
2011-07-26 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> [34]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/568
[34] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/568
noah: Providing input to Jeff on top 5 priorities
<noah> NM: TAG members, are you OK with pointing Jeff to this?
jar: as long as it's OK that the page I wrote is a draft
<noah> ACTION: Noah to work with Jonathan to update URI definition
discovery product page Due: 2011-08-18 [recorded in
[35]http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-tagmem-irc]
[35] http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-tagmem-irc
<trackbot> Created ACTION-589 - Work with Jonathan to update URI
definition discovery product page Due: 2011-08-18 [on Noah
Mendelsohn - due 2011-08-11].
noah: Look at "other active projects" list?
<noah> ACTION-440?
<trackbot> ACTION-440 -- Henry Thompson to ask Hixie what is meant
in this [section 9.2] by "retrieving an external entity" and could
some clarification be added. -- due 2011-05-16 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> [36]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/440
[36] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/440
ht: close action 440 - I've sent last call comment - nothing more to
do.
<noah> close ACTION-440
<trackbot> ACTION-440 Ask Hixie what is meant in this [section 9.2]
by "retrieving an external entity" and could some clarification be
added. closed
<plinss>
[37]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Jun/0188.html
[37] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Jun/0188.html
<Larry> there is more work in IETF on unicode normailization
plinss: Unicode normalization never got onto our radar
<Larry> new IETF working group on the topic
plinss: They want to present to us.
<Larry> [38]https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/precis/
[38] https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/precis/
<noah> ACTION: Noah to follow up with Addison Phillips on Unicode
normalization
[39]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Jun/0188.html
recorded in [40]http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-tagmem-irc]
[39] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Jun/0188.html
[40] http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-tagmem-irc
<trackbot> Created ACTION-590 - Follow up with Addison Phillips on
Unicode normalization
[41]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Jun/0188.html
[on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2011-08-11].
[41] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Jun/0188.html
<Larry> "Preparation and Comparison of Internationalized Strings"
<Larry> see
[42]https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-precis-problem-state
ment/
[42] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-precis-problem-statement/
<Larry> and
[43]https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-blanchet-precis-framework
/
[43] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-blanchet-precis-framework/
<noah> Who is available for call next week?
<ht> HT
jar: JAR
<noah> Noah: maybe/probably
<plinss> plinss
<Ashok> AM
<Larry> Larry: Maybe, not sure
noah: OK, let's have a call. Priority is preparation for Sept.
ht: Pretty happy with X-Lite 4 for dialin (w3c suggests)
ADJOURNED
<ht> I use X-Lite 4 for VOIP from Windows box
<noah> Henry: please do let us know about hotels. Tnx.
<ht> Yes, it's a good location (as I said, across the street from
the [R...]) and likely to be quiet rooms
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Ashok to add text covering advice equivalent to "Use
of AJAX implementation technology is not a sufficient excuse for
failing to provide first class URI identification for documents on
the Web" recorded in [44]http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-tagmem-irc]
[NEW] ACTION: Noah to follow up with Addison Phillips on Unicode
normalization
[45]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Jun/0188.html
recorded in [46]http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-tagmem-irc]
[NEW] ACTION: Noah to work with Jonathan to update URI definition
discovery product page Due: 2011-08-18 [recorded in
[47]http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-tagmem-irc]
[NEW] ACTION: Noah to work with Larry to update mime-web product
page Due 2011-08-18 [recorded in
[48]http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-tagmem-irc]
[44] http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-tagmem-irc
[45] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Jun/0188.html
[46] http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-tagmem-irc
[47] http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-tagmem-irc
[48] http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-tagmem-irc
[End of minutes]
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