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Draft minutes for TAG telcon of 2011-08-04

From: Jonathan Rees <jar@creativecommons.org>
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 15:34:18 -0400
Message-ID: <CACHXnap+LAu+WdJgG+Pc_FoqKt4Vi8v91N+=t-jeK96_PRsBcg@mail.gmail.com>
To: www-tag@w3.org
are now online at

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/08/04-minutes

and in plain text below.

Best
Jonathan


   [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                               - DRAFT -

                  Technical Architecture Group Weekly

04 Aug 2011

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/08/04-agenda

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-tagmem-irc

Attendees

   Present
          Jonathan_Rees, Peter_Linss, Noah_Mendelsohn, Ashok_Malhotra,
          Henry_S._Thompson, Larry_Masinter

   Regrets

   Chair
          Noah Mendelsohn

   Scribe
          Jonathan Rees

Contents

     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]Convene
         2. [6]Approve minutes of prior meeting(s)
         3. [7]Administrative items
         4. [8]Planning for Sept. 2011 F2F
     * [9]Summary of Action Items
     _________________________________________________________

   <scribe> scribenick: jar

   <scribe> scribe: Jonathan Rees

   <noah> Jonathan, thanks for noticing the scribing. Meant to give you
   a heads-up.

Convene

Approve minutes of prior meeting(s)

   noah: Did minutes of 14th get approved at last meeting? Not clear in
   minutes of the 21st

   (minutes of 21st not discussed today)

Administrative items

   <noah> Summer schedule
   [10]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/coordination/Summer2011Availability.x
   ls

     [10] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/coordination/Summer2011Availability.xls

   Looking at meeting scheduling.

   noah: Wait until Sept 1? But that's a long way off, and we have a
   F2F coming up

   (looking at regrets spreadsheet)

   <ht> What about 11 Aug?

   noah: Let's talk about the 11th at the end of today's call

   (discussion of hotels in Edinburgh)

   ht: Consider B&Bs

   plinss: A few weeks ago I found lots of hotels full

Planning for Sept. 2011 F2F

   <noah> [11]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/

     [11] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/

   HTML5 LC review (product). Due date yesterday

   noah: that one seems set for now. next:...
   ... Fragids and mime types

   <noah> Product page for fragids:
   [12]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/fragids.html

     [12] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/fragids.html

   <ht> I can either have headphones or mike :-(

   <ht> Hold on

   <noah> We claimed we would produce a TAG Finding at year end 2011,
   is that right?

   ACTION-567?

   <trackbot> ACTION-567 -- Jeni Tennison to draft a document
   describing problems around fragids and ways things should be changed
   -- due 2011-06-28 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [13]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/567

     [13] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/567

   <noah> We should add [an appropriate] document pointer to the
   product page.

   <noah> Look for F2F minutes?

   <noah> HT: I think that's reasonable. Not sure whether either of us
   can prepare anything for F2F.

   noah: Wondering if Jeni's RDFa/microdata obligations will interfere
   ... HT, any chance of progress in Aug?

   <noah> [14]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/06/07-minutes.html#item01

     [14] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/06/07-minutes.html#item01

   <noah> <trackbot> ACTION-543 -- Jeni Tennison to propose addition to
   MIME/Web draft to discuss sem-web use of fragids not grounded in
   media type -- due 2011-06-15 -- OPEN

   <noah> <trackbot>
   [15]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/543

     [15] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/543

   <noah> This might be what Jeni prepared:
   [16]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011May/0089.html

     [16] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011May/0089.html

   jar: right.

   ht: Peter and I are more likely to succeed if there's something to
   work from [is it message 0089?]
   ... Whatever I do I'd like to do well, and I only have capacity to
   do one thing well (before F2F)

   plinss: I can probably kick in and help, ...

   <noah> NM: Peter, can you join Henry and Jeni on ACTIONS-543 and
   ACTION-567?

   <noah> PL: Yes, willing to try.

   <noah> HT: Not sure what to do.

   <noah> NM: My priority is making real progress at the F2F so we can
   have a finding in Dec. Can HT, PL and Jeni tell me in a week or so
   how they recommend doing that?

   <noah> HT: Yes.

   <Larry> The MIME stuff is a little chaotic and hard to sort out what
   to do next giving what's going on in IETF

   <Larry> I think the "Fragment Identifiers and MIME types" product
   needs changes to coordinate, but I'm not entirely sure what the
   right milestones are

   <noah> Larry: please work with Henry, Peter, and Jeni on that.

   <noah> [Moving on: Let's look at next thing in]
   [17]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/

     [17] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/

   <noah> [18]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/clientsidestate.html

     [18] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/clientsidestate.html

   <noah> New draft from Ashok:
   [19]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/IdentifyingApplicationState-20110
   715.html

     [19] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/IdentifyingApplicationState-20110715.html

   <noah> Stated goal is: 1 Sept 2011: Last-call quality draft

   noah: How does your [Ashok's] latest relate to a future LC draft?

   ashok: [scribe missed...] All please review what's already there

   noah: I wanted you to look at a blog post I wrote a while back

   <noah> From my blog entry:
   [20]http://blog.arcanedomain.com/2011/03/identifying-documents-in-we
   b-applications/

     [20] http://blog.arcanedomain.com/2011/03/identifying-documents-in-web-applications/

   <noah> A couple of bits of advice were given:

   <noah> "Use of AJAX implementation technology is not a sufficient
   excuse for failing to provide first class URI identification for
   documents on the Web"

   <noah> Maybe or maybe not: "Where practical, model your application
   as a collection of documents, each with its own URI"

   <Larry> maybe there's some more positive and actionable
   recommendation?

   ashok: the second one, we should talk about. first looks ok, but I'd
   state it a bit differently

   noah: Please incorporate some of what I wrote into the document?

   ashok: I can do that

   <Larry> "When using Ajax/dynamic application state, application
   designers SHOULD also provide first class URI identification for
   'document' view of application state"

   <noah> ACTION: Ashok to add text covering advice equivalent to "Use
   of AJAX implementation technology is not a sufficient excuse for
   failing to provide first class URI identification for documents on
   the Web" recorded in [21]http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-tagmem-irc]

     [21] http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-tagmem-irc

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-586 - Add text covering advice equivalent
   to "Use of AJAX implementation technology is not a sufficient excuse
   for failing to provide first class URI identification for documents
   on the Web" [on Ashok Malhotra - due 2011-08-11].

   masinter: Make it positive and actionable.

   noah: Positive is good

   <noah> ACTION-458 Due 2011-09-01

   <trackbot> ACTION-458 Schedule discussion of followup actions for
   TAG to coordinate with IETF on MIME-type related activities due date
   now 2011-09-01

   <Larry> maybe this is really advice for application framework
   designers

   <noah> ACTION-481?

   <trackbot> ACTION-481 -- Ashok Malhotra to update client-side state
   document with help from Raman -- due 2011-09-10 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [22]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/481

     [22] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/481

   <Larry> for example... is this something that could/should be built
   into jQuery?

   <noah> URI Definition and Discovery

   <noah> Product page:
   [23]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/defininguris.html

     [23] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/defininguris.html

   <noah> I added link to
   [24]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/awwsw/issue57/20110625/

     [24] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/awwsw/issue57/20110625/

   <noah> NM: Did you get comments?

   <noah> JAR: I got a few good comments, but thought I would get more.

   <noah> HT: Well, it's still in my high priority queue

   <Ashok> Slipped below my radar

   <noah> JAR: There was a big flame war [on public-lod], I'm a little
   surprised/disappointed that folks who were participating in that
   discussion haven't weighed in.

   <noah> JAR: I did have a good exchange with Ian Davis.

   <noah> JAR: We probably need a meeting or phone call to get the
   progress we need.

   <noah> HT: Will people wake up if they feel threatened by a mandated
   solution?

   <noah> JAR: That was my plan in Feb. That could still be one way to
   go.

   <noah> JAR: [I've been thinking about] next steps of getting
   practical resolution of problems, as opposed to focusing on the
   document.

   <noah> Success criteria

   <noah> Uptake

   <noah> Technical interoperability of RDF used for metadata with RDF
   used for linked data

   noah: Could TAG members read & comment on the draft before the F2F?

   <noah> JAR: I'd like TAG members to read two things before the F2F.
   1) I will revise
   [25]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/awwsw/issue57/20110625/ before last
   week of August -- asking TAG members to read the revision for the
   F2F

     [25] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/awwsw/issue57/20110625/

   <noah> 2) I will do a new document dealing with the metadata side of
   this.

   <noah> I think JAR is disappointed to find that many of the people
   who have been vocal on these subjects over the years didn't weigh in
   with comments on his draft.

   <noah> The metadata document will be related to ISSUE-63.

   <noah> ACTION-579?

   <trackbot> ACTION-579 -- Jonathan Rees to solicit review of issue-57
   (definition discovery) document from readers of public-lod and/or
   semantic-web lists [self-assigned] -- due 2011-06-30 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [26]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/579

     [26] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/579

   (1) definition discovery (303 / #) , (2) referring to documents on
   the web (info resource)

   (1) and (2) are unrelated logically, but competing over syntactic
   space. so need to look at both

   <Larry> I would reword the names of these

   <noah> close ACTION-579

   <trackbot> ACTION-579 Solicit review of issue-57 (definition
   discovery) document from readers of public-lod and/or semantic-web
   lists [self-assigned] closed

   <Larry> I don't like "Definition" as what is being discovered.
   "Intention of meaning by party A in the following communication
   scenario"

   <Larry> it isn't "what is being defined", it is "by whom "

   <noah> LM: It's a communication act.

   action jar to prepare issue-57 and issue-63 documents for TAG
   members to discuss at Sept F2F due 2011-08-23

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-587 - Prepare issue-57 and issue-63
   documents for TAG members to discuss at Sept F2F due 2011-08-23 [on
   Jonathan Rees - due 2011-08-11].

   <noah> ACTION-587?

   <trackbot> ACTION-587 -- Jonathan Rees to prepare issue-57 and
   issue-63 documents for TAG members to discuss at Sept F2F -- due
   2011-08-23 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [27]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/587

     [27] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/587

   <noah> Next up from [28]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/ is
   Mime/Web

     [28] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/

   <noah> Product page at:
   [29]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/mimeweb.html

     [29] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/mimeweb.html

   <noah> Schedules:

   <noah> Note: a preliminary draft report was published by Norm Walsh
   on 22 March 2011

   <noah> 30 September 2011: Report finalized

   <noah> 30 September 2011: TAG achieves success criteria set out
   above, and identifies further goals and next steps, if any

   (still in F2F planning topic)

   <noah> [30]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/mimeweb.html

     [30] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/mimeweb.html

   <noah> Success criteria

   <noah> The TAG will publish (or ensure that others have published)
   analyses explaining the areas in which use of Mime on the Web is
   proving problematic, and will suggest concrete steps for resolving
   problems where they are found.

   <noah> The TAG will liase with the IETF and other concerned parties
   to resolve these issues

   <noah> The TAG, working with others as appropriate, will document
   the solutions that are agreed by the community, and will highlight
   areas in which unresolved problems remain.

   larry: Haven't figured out what the right thing to do is

   <noah> Current deliverable commitment:

   <noah> Key deliverables with dates:

   <noah> 31 December 2011: Final TAG Report on MIME architecture, most
   likely in the form of an Internet Draft

   <noah> Note that drafts are being published at:
   [31]http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-masinter-mime-web-info

     [31] http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-masinter-mime-web-info

   <Larry> I got serious feedback from John Klensin (who also reported
   from Ned Freed) that they didn't think the
   draft-masinter-mime-web-info document was "helpful"

   larry: couldn't get more detail than that

   <noah> OK, so I think that means we need to think about whether this
   work remains a top priority for us.

   larry: Doc talks about 3 things that should probably be separated. 1
   what's wrong with the content (what's in the entries). 2. the
   process around registration - problem with unregistered types or
   wrong registrations. happy-iana forum
   ... 3. significant issues around mime sniffing, and what happens
   when the content is malformed
   ... Maybe the three problems will get fixed in different forums. web
   security WG, mime registration, happy IANA

   <noah> Do you have a sense of whether your document was useful to
   those working on any of these 3 areas?

   larry: We might need to coordinate our efforts in 3 different ways
   ... "not helpful" might have had to do with document not teasing
   apart the 3 issues

   ashok: Maybe there should be a checklist for what registrations have
   to cover?

   <Larry>
   [32]http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-freed-media-type-regs-00

     [32] http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-freed-media-type-regs-00

   <Larry> that document has the checklist in it

   <Larry> if that checklist is inadequate, we should get it updated

   <Larry> perhaps we've done enough to get things going that we can
   declare success

   noah: Need to figure out priority. If continues high, maybe revise
   our deliverables list.

   larry: We may have done enough to kick off other efforts already,
   thus reducing the need for what we had originally proposed

   noah: Look at what we said (product page)...

   <Larry> there's another event, which is the change of the default
   charset for text/ MIME types in the HTTP spec and in MIME itself

   <noah> Success criteria

   <noah> The TAG will publish (or ensure that others have published)
   analyses explaining the areas in which use of Mime on the Web is
   proving problematic, and will suggest concrete steps for resolving
   problems where they are found.

   <noah> LM: We did that.

   <noah> "The TAG will liase with the IETF and other concerned parties
   to resolve these issues"

   <noah> LM: We've done some work on that, should do more.

   <noah> LM: Should review documents prepared by others, e.g. the
   Freed (sp?) document

   larry: We did the 1st thing (published an analysis). Maybe do a bit
   more on 2nd thing, e.g. review Freed document. and the sniffing
   document.

   <noah> "The TAG, working with others as appropriate, will document
   the solutions that are agreed by the community, and will highlight
   areas in which unresolved problems remain."

   <noah> LM: We need to ensure others are doing.

   larry: We need to ensure that solutions are documented (we don't
   necessarily need to do the documenting)

   noah: Let's schedule this for September.
   ... Where we've changed a goal, let's leave some tracks [for
   accountability]

   <Larry> i'll take an action item to prepare for TAG F2F with a list
   of documents to review

   <noah> ACTION: Noah to work with Larry to update mime-web product
   page Due 2011-08-18 [recorded in
   [33]http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-tagmem-irc]

     [33] http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-tagmem-irc

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-588 - Work with Larry to update mime-web
   product page Due 2011-08-18 [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2011-08-11].

   <noah> ACTION-568?

   <trackbot> ACTION-568 -- Noah Mendelsohn to draft note for Jeff
   Jaffe listing 5 top TAG priorities as trackable items. -- due
   2011-07-26 -- PENDINGREVIEW

   <trackbot> [34]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/568

     [34] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/568

   noah: Providing input to Jeff on top 5 priorities

   <noah> NM: TAG members, are you OK with pointing Jeff to this?

   jar: as long as it's OK that the page I wrote is a draft

   <noah> ACTION: Noah to work with Jonathan to update URI definition
   discovery product page Due: 2011-08-18 [recorded in
   [35]http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-tagmem-irc]

     [35] http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-tagmem-irc

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-589 - Work with Jonathan to update URI
   definition discovery product page Due: 2011-08-18 [on Noah
   Mendelsohn - due 2011-08-11].

   noah: Look at "other active projects" list?

   <noah> ACTION-440?

   <trackbot> ACTION-440 -- Henry Thompson to ask Hixie what is meant
   in this [section 9.2] by "retrieving an external entity" and could
   some clarification be added. -- due 2011-05-16 -- PENDINGREVIEW

   <trackbot> [36]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/440

     [36] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/440

   ht: close action 440 - I've sent last call comment - nothing more to
   do.

   <noah> close ACTION-440

   <trackbot> ACTION-440 Ask Hixie what is meant in this [section 9.2]
   by "retrieving an external entity" and could some clarification be
   added. closed

   <plinss>
   [37]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Jun/0188.html

     [37] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Jun/0188.html

   <Larry> there is more work in IETF on unicode normailization

   plinss: Unicode normalization never got onto our radar

   <Larry> new IETF working group on the topic

   plinss: They want to present to us.

   <Larry> [38]https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/precis/

     [38] https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/precis/

   <noah> ACTION: Noah to follow up with Addison Phillips on Unicode
   normalization
   [39]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Jun/0188.html
   recorded in [40]http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-tagmem-irc]

     [39] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Jun/0188.html
     [40] http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-tagmem-irc

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-590 - Follow up with Addison Phillips on
   Unicode normalization
   [41]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Jun/0188.html
   [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2011-08-11].

     [41] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Jun/0188.html

   <Larry> "Preparation and Comparison of Internationalized Strings"

   <Larry> see
   [42]https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-precis-problem-state
   ment/

     [42] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-precis-problem-statement/

   <Larry> and
   [43]https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-blanchet-precis-framework
   /

     [43] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-blanchet-precis-framework/

   <noah> Who is available for call next week?

   <ht> HT

   jar: JAR

   <noah> Noah: maybe/probably

   <plinss> plinss

   <Ashok> AM

   <Larry> Larry: Maybe, not sure

   noah: OK, let's have a call. Priority is preparation for Sept.

   ht: Pretty happy with X-Lite 4 for dialin (w3c suggests)

   ADJOURNED

   <ht> I use X-Lite 4 for VOIP from Windows box

   <noah> Henry: please do let us know about hotels. Tnx.

   <ht> Yes, it's a good location (as I said, across the street from
   the [R...]) and likely to be quiet rooms

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Ashok to add text covering advice equivalent to "Use
   of AJAX implementation technology is not a sufficient excuse for
   failing to provide first class URI identification for documents on
   the Web" recorded in [44]http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-tagmem-irc]
   [NEW] ACTION: Noah to follow up with Addison Phillips on Unicode
   normalization
   [45]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Jun/0188.html
   recorded in [46]http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-tagmem-irc]
   [NEW] ACTION: Noah to work with Jonathan to update URI definition
   discovery product page Due: 2011-08-18 [recorded in
   [47]http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-tagmem-irc]
   [NEW] ACTION: Noah to work with Larry to update mime-web product
   page Due 2011-08-18 [recorded in
   [48]http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-tagmem-irc]

     [44] http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-tagmem-irc
     [45] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Jun/0188.html
     [46] http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-tagmem-irc
     [47] http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-tagmem-irc
     [48] http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-tagmem-irc

   [End of minutes]
     _________________________________________________________


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