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Telcon minutes 2010-10-07

From: Jonathan Rees <jar@creativecommons.org>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 14:58:06 -0400
Message-ID: <AANLkTinueTCAYwu1x5v84w4knDdkY2OnGPbR8sfrGTOC@mail.gmail.com>
To: www-tag@w3.org
Draft minutes available at

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/10/07-minutes.html

and below.  -Jonathan

--------------

                               - DRAFT -

              Technical Architecture Group Teleconference

07 Oct 2010

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/10/07-agenda

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2010/10/07-tagmem-irc

Attendees

   Present
          DKA, Masinter, Jonathan_Rees, Noah_Mendelsohn, Yves, ht

   Regrets
          John, Ashok

   Chair
          Noah Mendelsohn

   Scribe
          Jonathan Rees

Contents

     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]Convene
         2. [6]Approve minutes of prior meeting(s)
         3. [7]Administrative items
         4. [8]F2F Visitor Session
         5. [9]TPAC meeting with IETF
         6. [10]HTML 5 / Distributed Extensibility
         7. [11]F2F Agenda Planning
         8. [12]Privacy Workshop
         9. [13]Action item review
     * [14]Summary of Action Items
     _________________________________________________________

   trackbot, start meeting

   <trackbot> Date: 07 October 2010

   <scribe> scribe: Jonathan Rees

   <scribe> scribenick: jar

Convene

   Next meeting 14 Oct, but somewhat at risk

Approve minutes of prior meeting(s)

   [15]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/30-minutes.html

     [15] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/30-minutes.html

   jar: What does 'DS' stand for?

   <DKA> Yep.

   Noah has changed DS to distributed extensibility

   RESOLUTION: [16]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/30-minutes.html
   approved with correction to 'DS'

     [16] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/30-minutes.html

Administrative items

   <masinter> issue-50?

   <trackbot> ISSUE-50 -- URIs, URNs, "location independent" naming
   systems and associated registries for naming on the Web -- open

   <trackbot> [17]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/50

     [17] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/50

   <ht> +1 to that topic

   <noah> ACTION-444?

   <trackbot> ACTION-444 -- Jonathan Rees to draft a white paper on
   link persistence -- due 2010-10-11 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [18]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/444

     [18] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/444

   jar: I think I have new ways to look at this, and have received some
   encouragement from Larry and Henry

   noah: Other writings in progress [for F2F]?

   masinter: I will gather references for additional metadata-related
   resources

   <masinter> I'll gather references for metadata discussion, but would
   appreciate pointers

   <noah> ACTION-465?

   <trackbot> ACTION-465 -- Noah Mendelsohn to schedule F2F discussion
   of ACTION-282, "which metadata mechanisms to use when". Get reading
   list from Larry and www-tag. -- due 2010-10-05 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [19]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/465

     [19] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/465

   <masinter> issue-63?

   <trackbot> ISSUE-63 -- Metadata Architecture for the Web -- open

   <trackbot> [20]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/63

     [20] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/63

   larry, go through the notes for ISSUE-63 (I think) - I've dumped
   links there.

   <noah> JAR: For Larry, when I come across metadata things, I've been
   trying to tag them with ISSUE-63

   <masinter> ok, i'll sort through those

F2F Visitor Session

   <noah> ACTION-355?

   <trackbot> ACTION-355 -- John Kemp to explore the degree to which
   AWWW and associated findings tell the interaction story for Web
   Applications -- due 2010-10-05 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [21]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/355

     [21] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/355

   noah: John K regrets lack of progress on interaction story, his TAG
   work has been unexpectedly preempted

   ACTION-454?

   <trackbot> ACTION-454 -- Daniel Appelquist to take lead in
   organizing outside contacts for TAG F2F -- due 2010-10-05 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [22]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/454

     [22] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/454

   <noah> [23]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2010Oct/0008.html

     [23] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2010Oct/0008.html

   DKA: Not sure why I'm not getting through [to invitees]
   ... JAR made a guest suggestion, but I would like more information

   (discussion of who to invite, and how to reach)

   <Zakim> ht, you wanted to suggest trying other routes

   <noah> ACTION: Noah to ask Raman to set up phone at F2F [recorded in
   [24]http://www.w3.org/2010/10/07-tagmem-irc]

     [24] http://www.w3.org/2010/10/07-tagmem-irc

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-474 - Ask Raman to set up phone at F2F [on
   Noah Mendelsohn - due 2010-10-14].

TPAC meeting with IETF

   IETF / TAG meeting at 2pm Thursday French local time

   jar: What's happening Thu vs. Fri?

   noah: Fri was Norm Walsh
   ... JAR please work with Yves to decide whether a phone is needed.

   <masinter> suggest for IETF meeting reviewing MIME and Web, IRI,
   other liaison issues, way forward in IETF

   <masinter> maybe post agenda on W3C/IETF liaison list?

   <Yves> websec as well

   <Yves> (new name for hasmat)

HTML 5 / Distributed Extensibility

   issue-41?

   <trackbot> ISSUE-41 -- What are good practices for designing
   extensible languages and for handling versioning? -- open

   <trackbot> [25]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/41

     [25] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/41

   <noah> ACTON-473?

   <noah> ACTION-473?

   <trackbot> ACTION-473 -- Noah Mendelsohn to draft possible TAG
   response on HTML extensibility -- due 2010-10-07 -- PENDINGREVIEW

   <trackbot> [26]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/473

     [26] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/473

   <noah> [27]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2010Oct/0007.html

     [27] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2010Oct/0007.html

   noah: HTML WG is running a survey , "like SVG" vs. "no edit"
   ... looking for go-ahead to send email [linked above]

   (jar was reading the email and missed HT's comment. sorry)

   ht: Should we say something pointed and contrary, as opposed to a
   general purpose "we prefer DE" criticism? (scribe uncertainty)

   <masinter> a stronger statement might also call for continued,
   serious, additional W3C work on DE, independently of what HTML WG
   can agree to for HTML5 LC

   <noah> Larry, do you have a proposed sentence? There is value in
   getting this now to a point where we can approve.

   <noah> The note says in para #1" two options for HTML extensibility,
   the options being known

   <noah> > informally as "like SVG" [$1\47] and "zero edit" [$1\47]

   <noah> I think that covers it for our purposes: we can use those
   terms in the remainder of the note.

   <ht> We think the like-SVG proposal not only provides the basis for
   DE, it has the advantage of doing so in a way which makes good use
   of the already-in-place support for namespaces in the DOM, while
   placing virtually all the burden of using the proposed mechanism on
   those who chose to use it, since namespace-awareness is already
   necessary for SVG and MathML.

   <noah> We think the like-SVG proposal provides the basis for DE
   placing virtually all the burden of using the proposed mechanism on
   those who chose to use it, since namespace-awareness is already
   necessary for SVG and MathML.

   <masinter> Distributed extensibility is an important area for
   managing the evolution of web content: allowing vendors to
   experiment with additions before standardization while controlling
   those extensions. We understand that the details of how to
   accomplish this are difficult, and that "like SVG" may be the best
   we can accomplish for HTML at this time. However, we support
   continued, serious, additional W3C work on DE, independently of what
   can be

   <masinter> accomplished for HTML5 "last call".

   <noah> Implicitly, we believe that maintaining support for
   namespaces in the DOM is, on balance, worthwhile.

   <Zakim> masinter, you wanted to discuss endorsing more work rather
   than specifically namespaces

   <noah> HT: Endorses Larry's long quote.

   <noah> We are about to endorse a proposal that does use namespaces.
   Why say more?

   <noah> [28]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2010Oct/0006.html

     [28] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2010Oct/0006.html

   (discussion of wording and content of email)

   <ht> We think the like-SVG proposal provides the basis for DE, with
   the additional benefit of placing virtually all the burden of using
   the proposed mechanism on those who chose to use it, since
   namespace-awareness is already necessary for SVG and MathML.

   <noah> On balance, the TAG believes that the "like SVG" option is
   far superior to

   <noah> "zero-edit", and we hope that it will be adopted by the HTML
   working group.

   <noah> It is, of course, a compromise in a number of dimensions, but
   we feel

   <noah> that it represents a significant positive and pragmatic step
   toward

   <noah> providing the needed extensibility.

   <noah> We think the like-SVG proposal provides the basis for DE,
   with the additional benefit of placing virtually all the burden of
   using the proposed mechanism on those who chose to use it, since
   namespace-awareness is already necessary for SVG and MathML.

   jar: please remove the word "far"

   <noah> [29]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2010Oct/0010.html

     [29] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2010Oct/0010.html

   <DKA> I like it.

   noah: Draft is in my emacs buffer, but almost same as tag email
   linked above. What does everyone think?
   ... I think there are other uses for DE [besides what LM
   articulated]?

   <masinter> ok

   noah: Leave out part after the colon?

   <DKA> +1 to leaving out the stuff after the colon.

   noah: Sounds like people on the call are OK with this version.

   <DKA> +1 to ht

F2F Agenda Planning

   <noah> For F2F agenda, see:
   [30]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/10/07-agenda

     [30] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/10/07-agenda

   Noah will dispose of the email appropriately.

   <noah> [31]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/10/07-agenda#F2FAgenda

     [31] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/10/07-agenda#F2FAgenda

   <noah> [32]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/10/19-agenda.html

     [32] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/10/19-agenda.html

   noah: What do you all think of the agenda?

   masinter: I need feedback on sniffing (ACTION-472) *before* the F2F.
   [Please.]

   action-472?

   <trackbot> ACTION-472 -- Larry Masinter to update the mime-draft,
   due 2010-10-12 -- due 2010-10-07 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [33]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/472

     [33] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/472

   masinter: Correction: I am not hosting the IRI meeting, I'm just
   attending it.
   ... It's an open meeting (telecon)

   noah: Maybe Raman will let us stay in the room and use speakerphone
   there.

   <noah> But he's warned us likely not.

   <masinter> on MIME and the web document, I will have a new document
   submitted soon, would appreciate any new input ASAP

Privacy Workshop

   <noah> ACTION-460?

   <trackbot> ACTION-460 -- Daniel Appelquist to coordinate with IAB
   regarding next steps on privacy policy -- due 2010-10-12 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [34]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/460

     [34] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/460

   <noah> ACTION-470?

   <trackbot> ACTION-470 -- Noah Mendelsohn to ask Thomas about TAG
   involvement in privacy workshop -- due 2010-09-30 -- CLOSED

   <trackbot> [35]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/470

     [35] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/470

   <DKA> Nothing to report on 460.

   <masinter> i might be interested also, in the role as TAG member

   DKA: Will follow up with Thomas R

Action item review

   <noah>
   [36]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/pendingreview

     [36] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/pendingreview

   <noah> ACTION-469?

   <trackbot> ACTION-469 -- Noah Mendelsohn to offer to organizers of
   AC to do short session answering questions and/or giving TAG status
   report -- due 2010-09-30 -- PENDINGREVIEW

   <trackbot> [37]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/469

     [37] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/469

   <noah> Note was sent 29 Sept.

   <noah> close ACTION-469

   <trackbot> ACTION-469 Offer to organizers of AC to do short session
   answering questions and/or giving TAG status report closed

   <noah> ACTION-473?

   <trackbot> ACTION-473 -- Noah Mendelsohn to draft possible TAG
   response on HTML extensibility -- due 2010-10-07 -- PENDINGREVIEW

   <trackbot> [38]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/473

     [38] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/473

   noah: Request permission to close this when the note goes out.

   (no objection)

   <noah> Overdue by person:
   [39]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/overdue?sort=due

     [39] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/overdue?sort=due

   <noah> ACTION-390?

   <trackbot> ACTION-390 -- Daniel Appelquist to review ISSUE-58 and
   suggest next steps -- due 2010-05-25 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [40]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/390

     [40] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/390

   <DKA> issue-58?

   <trackbot> ISSUE-58 -- Scalability of URI Access to Resources --
   open

   <trackbot> [41]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/58

     [41] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/58

   <DKA> action-434?

   <trackbot> ACTION-434 -- Daniel Appelquist to prepare discussion of
   structure of what we want to do about web apps architecture... --
   due 2010-05-27 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [42]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/434

     [42] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/434

   <noah> That could be important.

   <noah> I really want the Web apps stuff to be a main theme here
   (notwithstanding that we're getting a bit less writing than I had
   hoped)

   masinter: Synchronization, security issues - I may have some input -

   noah: We have to do a gut check on where we're going with this web
   apps stuff. Action 434 tries to take this top down.
   ... If you can give serious thought that would be great ... I would
   rather not schedule a session just because we said we would
   ... can you let us know over the next week how it's coming together?

   DKA: sure

   action-390?

   <trackbot> ACTION-390 -- Daniel Appelquist to review ISSUE-58 and
   suggest next steps -- due 2010-05-25 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [43]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/390

     [43] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/390

   DKA: How about the F2F

   action-390 due 2010-10-19

   <trackbot> ACTION-390 Review ISSUE-58 and suggest next steps due
   date now 2010-10-19

   <noah> ACTION-390?

   <trackbot> ACTION-390 -- Daniel Appelquist to review ISSUE-58 and
   suggest next steps -- due 2010-10-18 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [44]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/390

     [44] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/390

   <noah> ACTION-434 Due 2010-10-18

   <trackbot> ACTION-434 Prepare discussion of structure of what we
   want to do about web apps architecture... due date now 2010-10-18

   <noah> ACTION-461?

   <trackbot> ACTION-461 -- Daniel Appelquist to draft "finding" on Web
   Apps API design -- due 2010-09-09 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [45]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/461

     [45] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/461

   <noah> ACTION-461 Due 2010-10-31

   <trackbot> ACTION-461 Draft "finding" on Web Apps API design due
   date now 2010-10-31

   <noah> ACTION-439?

   <trackbot> ACTION-439 -- Daniel Appelquist to introduce
   signature-based approaches to access control -- due 2010-06-15 --
   OPEN

   <trackbot> [46]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/439

     [46] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/439

   <noah> Came from June 2010 F2F:
   [47]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Jun/0106.html

     [47] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Jun/0106.html

   <noah> Discussion related to widgets

   DKA: 439 had to do with how widgets use signatures... need to relate
   to the relevant widget-signature document

   <noah> ACTION-439 due 2010-10-14

   <trackbot> ACTION-439 Introduce signature-based approaches to access
   control due date now 2010-10-14

   <noah> ACTION-462?

   <trackbot> ACTION-462 -- Yves Lafon to write draft of best practices
   on redirection for secondary resources (with help from Tim) -- due
   2010-10-05 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [48]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/462

     [48] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/462

   <noah>
   [49]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Oct/0003.html

     [49] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Oct/0003.html

   <noah> ACTION-462 PENDING REVIEW

   noah: Discuss 462 at F2F?

   <noah> ACTION-448

   <noah> Yes, we agreed to discuss 462 at the F2F

   <noah> ACTION-448?

   <trackbot> ACTION-448 -- Noah Mendelsohn to schedule discussion of
   [50]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jun/0394.htm
   l on 26 August (followup to 24 June and 12 August discussion) -- due
   2010-10-05 -- OPEN

     [50] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jun/0394.html

   <trackbot> [51]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/448

     [51] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/448

   Barth email on URL specs

   <noah> ACTION-442 Due 2010-10-12

   <trackbot> ACTION-442 Try and integrate NM and TVRs words into a
   coherent draft due date now 2010-10-12

   <noah> ACTION-448 Due 2010-10-12

   <trackbot> ACTION-448 Schedule discussion of
   [52]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jun/0394.htm
   l on 26 August (followup to 24 June and 12 August discussion) due
   date now 2010-10-12

     [52] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jun/0394.html

   <noah>
   [53]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/open?sort=owner

     [53] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/open?sort=owner

   <noah>
   [54]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/overdue?sort=owne
   r

     [54] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/overdue?sort=owner

   <noah> ACTION-459?

   <trackbot> ACTION-459 -- Noah Mendelsohn to schedule F2F discussion
   of IRIbis status and Larry's proposal -- due 2010-10-05 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [55]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/459

     [55] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/459

   masinter: Will give a 5 minute report on where we are.

   <noah> ACTION-465?

   <trackbot> ACTION-465 -- Noah Mendelsohn to schedule F2F discussion
   of ACTION-282, "which metadata mechanisms to use when". Get reading
   list from Larry and www-tag. -- due 2010-10-05 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [56]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/465

     [56] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/465

   ADJOURNED

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Noah to ask Raman to set up phone at F2F [recorded in
   [57]http://www.w3.org/2010/10/07-tagmem-irc]

     [57] http://www.w3.org/2010/10/07-tagmem-irc

   [End of minutes]
     _________________________________________________________


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