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TAG telcon minutes for 25 Feb 2010

From: Jonathan Rees <jar@creativecommons.org>
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 16:59:13 -0500
Message-ID: <760bcb2a1003021359n2ca3a080re34079cdbe4076fe@mail.gmail.com>
To: www-tag@w3.org
Draft minutes available online as

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/02/25-minutes.html

and below in text form.  -Jonathan

----------------------------------

   [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                               - DRAFT -

              Technical Architecture Group Teleconference

25 Feb 2010

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/02/25-agenda

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2010/02/25-tagmem-irc

Attendees

   Present
          Timbl, noah, DanC, Raman, John_Kemp, Ashok_Malhotra,
          Jonathan_Rees, Ht, jar, DKA, Larry

   Regrets

   Chair
          Noah Mendelsohn

   Scribe
          Jonathan_Rees

Contents

     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]Convene
         2. [6]Administrative items
         3. [7]ISSUE-33 & ACTION-332: Mixing SVG & MathML in HTML 5
         4. [8]ISSUE-41 & ACTION-395: TAG Response on HTML
            Decentralized extensibility
         5. [9]Face to Face Meeting Agenda Preparation
     * [10]Summary of Action Items
     _________________________________________________________

   <inserted> Scribenick: jar

   <inserted> Scribe: Jonathan_Rees

   <trackbot> Date: 25 February 2010

Convene

   <DanC> +1 approve [11]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/02/18-minutes

     [11] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/02/18-minutes

   <johnk> +1 to approve the minutes

   RESOLUTION: approve minutes of Feb 18

Administrative items

   (F2F agenda discussion)

   noah: Writing quarterly TAG status, input welcome

   (Noah discussing today's agenda)

ISSUE-33 & ACTION-332: Mixing SVG & MathML in HTML 5

   [12]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Nov/0012.html

     [12] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Nov/0012.html

   <timbl> The HTML 5 design puts MathML elements in the MathML
   namespace

   <timbl> (and likewise SVG) with no syntactic cost to authors:

   danc: Opinions on the HTML WG design for MathML and SVG?

   <timbl> Given that the algorithm as far as I can see can be
   separated into a quite generic one, and a bit of metadata which
   defines which element names trigger which namespcaes, and given that
   it generates an XML DOM basically, this seems a nice design.

   timbl: Good feature: it's not specific to HTML. So there is
   potential for follow-your-nose.

   <DanC> "There isn't a general-purpose mechanism

   <DanC> for mixing other UI-related namespaces in the spec, but any
   mechanism

   <DanC> of that sort that should come along should be consistent with

   <DanC> the HTML 5 design, IMO."

   <Zakim> noah, you wanted to ask how this issue is different from
   dist. extensibility discussion?

   Noah: what I still trip over is who decides what these elements are,
   how they get updated
   ... there's no distributed extensibility story [but maybe there
   could be]

   <noah> Dan, we'll have you scribe another time.

   danc: DKA, Do you know about XBL or XBL2?

   DKA: negative

   <Zakim> ht, you wanted to make two points: text/html vs.
   application/xml+html; extensibility aspects of this design

   <noah> NM: I pointed out that the lack of a syntactic hook for
   distributed extensibility bothers me. Otherwise, it seems OK.

   ht: my 2nd point is what Noah says, there's centralised
   extensibility, not distributed extensibility
   ... But also it's another wedge between html and xhtml
   serialization. [...] doesn't work

   <noah> Raman is saying people depend on common prefixes. Maybe. Not
   sure I completely believe that.

   raman: with this design pattern, a particular way of doing things is
   being pushed

   <timbl> <svg:html><html:math><html<mi>x<//html:ma>

   <DanC> (no; don't go into namespace binding stuff... at least: don't
   go into stuff that doesn't address the *User Interface* aspects;
   screen real-estate, event bubbling, etc.)

   ht: a casual reader would think that there are these two magic
   elements <math> and <svg>. once you get to one of these you're using
   mathml or svg. this reasoning would be faulty

   <timbl> Other cross-over points? Please elaborate

   ht: the price is quadratic

   danc: you have to think about html inside svg, etc. - all
   combinations

   <ht> ht: OK, DanC, so, yes, cubic already, and likely to grow

   timbl: might be possible that extension points are common, hub
   architecture ...

   larry: the plugin interface is an example of an extensibility
   mechanism that ... dom ... [scribe slow]

   <timbl> The plugin interface needs to specify a set of elements
   which it adopts.

   <timbl> If you use this for plugins then you get search path madness
   within a few steps.

   <DanC> (binding elements to plug-ins... that's how XBL works, yes?
   does anybody here know?)

   larry: extensibility has many aspects. graphic contexts, user
   requests re caching or security, dom
   ... looking at requirements for plugin interface is a good way to
   think about extensibility
   ... mathml and svg are about rendering, but if that's all you're
   looking at you may be missing things

   <masinter> different kinds of extensibility: rendering
   extensibility, DOM integration extensibility, security integration,
   state integration

   timbl: So (you're saying) looking at the plugin API [requirements]
   is a good test.

   <masinter> math and svg integration also share events, not just
   rendering

   raman: how do you write a processor that is extensible over time...
   doesn't solve the problem of how svg calls back to the host
   container... that's an unsolved problem

   <ht> Tim, for multiple magic, see
   [13]http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/syntax.html#parsing-main-inforeign

     [13] http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/syntax.html#parsing-main-inforeign

   timbl: you mean it just hasn't been written yet

   <DKA> We tried to address this problem in the CDF working group,
   FYI: [14]http://www.w3.org/2004/CDF/

     [14] http://www.w3.org/2004/CDF/

   noah: There are people invested in this kind of generality, e.g.
   microsoft rendering html on surfaces

   <DanC> (yes, CDF was chartered to solve the general problem...)

   noah: To do this you need an integrated rendering model that all the
   pieces buy into

   raman: authoring, rendering, eventing all need to be coordinated

   timbl: This was done in Amaya, years ago, but i'm not sure whether
   you could apply a shear to something with html in it and have that
   shear affect the embedded HTML

   <DanC> hmm... interesting example tim just gave... a graph shear
   (sp?) ... whether it applies to HTML... and whether hit detection on
   HTML buttons in there work

   <ht> See also the example in
   [15]http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/syntax.html#foreign-elements

     [15] http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/syntax.html#foreign-elements

   <DanC> is that different from the example in my msg? looking...

   masinter: part of the css/html to embedded object interface is
   [scribe lost]

   noah: They closed this, but left distributed extensibility open

   <DanC> "html-svg-mathml State: CLOSED" --
   [16]http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/37

     [16] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/37

   ht: The situation is appalling. Don't think we should push back on
   this. SVG and MathML WGs have accepted it
   ... There will be DOM incompatibilities because attribute names are
   lowercased

   danc: DKA, what about the CDF experience?

   DKA: (compound document format WG)

   <DanC> [17]WICD Core 1.0 W3C Candidate Recommendation 18 July 2007

     [17] http://www.w3.org/TR/WICD/

   dka: WICD didn't have implementations

   [scribe sorry for missing Dan's summary. in a noisy room]

   DKA: the approach was that there would be separate DOMs ...

   raman: but they have consistent eventing, so you could graft

   dka: but there was a security issue, so we decided not to do that

   noah: let's wrap up

ISSUE-41 & ACTION-395: TAG Response on HTML Decentralized extensibility

   <DanC> action-357?

   <trackbot> ACTION-357 -- Henry S. Thompson to elaborate the DPD
   proposal to address comments from #xmlnames and tag f2f discussion
   of 2009-12-10, particularly wrt integration with XML specs and wrt
   motivation -- due 2010-03-16 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [18]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/357

     [18] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/357

   noah: Deadline is March 23

   ht: we've seen no evidence of any constituency inside the htmlwg
   interested in this. pushing from outside would probably be fruitless

   noah: Being on record is of some value even so, sometimes

   ht: Any of these proposals would be an improvement on the current
   draft

   noah: (Discussion of TAG relation to change proposal preparation)

   <noah> I thought I'd heard particular flaws raised with at least
   some of the proposals. Is it not appropriate for the TAG to get to
   the bottom of whether that's true?

   raman: Why should TAG take a position on one option vs. another? Put
   all 3 on the table

   <DKA> +1 to Raman's suggestion.

   <johnk> yes, also +1 to Raman's suggestion

   ht: I don't have time to do what Noah asked, that is, to compare the
   strengths and weaknesses of the status quo and the three proposals,
   but I do have time to put in a change proposal. Encourage other
   proposal authors to do the same

   <Zakim> johnk, you wanted to ask whether we can simply send an email
   to WG pointing out the set of proposals we know about

   <Zakim> noah, you wanted to ask about flaws in the designs

   johnk: We've done work here, we could say we looked at the three,
   couldn't someone in WG take a look at them

   noah: don't think we should appear to endorse one if we think it had
   a serious flaw.
   ... did our discussion peter our because of our criticisms?

   raman: The proposals got shouted down, so authors went away

   noah: didn't we say "but it doesn't do this or that"?

   <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to ask what suggests the HTML WG hasn't
   looked at these? The trick is to get a critical mass of support,
   which involves somebody who's interested to at least

   danc: I don't think the WG hasn't looked at them. The trick is to
   get a critical mass of support, someone to code them up

   <ht> Boy, setting the bar for _proposals_ at having an
   implementation is pretty high

   danc: When you said no support in the WG - don't know what happened
   to Microsoft - and there was someone else

   <Zakim> ht, you wanted to disagree with NM

   danc: the wg never adopts something unless someone's convinced to
   code it up

   <DanC> (WG participants who own code and see a proposal that they're
   not willing to code up regularly reject the proposal.)

   ht: In the discussion about all 3 proposals, as in the discussion of
   the status uo, there was consideration of strengths and weaknesses.
   ... but I don't think any flaws are fatal. pros and cons are
   contextual

   <DanC> ("rough consensus and running code", no?)

   <ht> Describes the IETF. . .

   ht: the community that ought to be looking at this, is the HTML WG

   <DanC> and the W3C, largely.

   <masinter> "running code" is given a priority, yes, but not
   "shipping code"

   <DanC> the code doesn't have to get written before a proposal is
   adopted, but implementors have to be *willing* to code it up

   ht: I would like noah, for the TAG, to write to Liam Quin and the MS
   proposal authors, to ask them to get a change proposal in

   <Ashok> +1

   <ht> +1

   +1

   <DanC> well, what i meant by "prototype in the context of a shipping
   browser" is "running code that's integrated with code that handles
   the complexity of the modern web"

   <johnk> +1

   <bubbles> 1+

   <DKA> to what?

   DKA, see above 'ht: I would like"

   <DKA> +1

   <masinter> +1 but note requirement may not to get CP in by deadline

   <ht> trackbot, status?

   <ht> ACTION to Henry S to draft emails for NM to send to HTML WG
   chairs and to Liam+MS authors encouraging a change proposal wrt
   distr. extensibility by 23 March

   <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - to

   <DanC> ACTION-356?

   <trackbot> ACTION-356 -- Noah Mendelsohn to work with Carine Bournez
   to schedule followup meeting on xmlnames followup discussion -- due
   2010-02-20 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [19]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/356

     [19] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/356

   <ht> ACTION Henry S to draft emails for NM to send to HTML WG chairs
   and to Liam+MS authors encouraging a change proposal wrt distr.
   extensibility by 23 March

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-396 - S to draft emails for NM to send to
   HTML WG chairs and to Liam+MS authors encouraging a change proposal
   wrt distr. extensibility by 23 March [on Henry S. Thompson - due
   2010-03-04].

Face to Face Meeting Agenda Preparation

   ht: Request time at F2F to talk about domain name permanence

   <DanC> ACTION-351?

   <trackbot> ACTION-351 -- Henry S. Thompson to look into a workshop
   on persistence... perhaps the June 2010 timeframe -- due 2010-03-16
   -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [20]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/351

     [20] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/351

   <DanC> web apps architecture product
   [21]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/products/7

     [21] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/products/7

   raman: Web app arch. As background, look at webapps [?] and geo

   <noah> [22]http://www.w3.org/TR/hash-in-uri/

     [22] http://www.w3.org/TR/hash-in-uri/

   raman: Next steps on hash-in-uri

   ashok: What is status of our issue on geoloc/geopriv? Open or not?

   <DanC> (we don't have an issue on geoloc/geopriv)

   ashok: ... we've been contacted by IETF

   DKA: I think it would be useful to talk about geo in context of the
   wg rechartering

   <DanC> ACTION-380?

   <trackbot> ACTION-380 -- Daniel Appelquist to draft response to
   Fredrick, short and to the point. Larry to review. -- due 2010-02-17
   -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [23]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/380

     [23] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/380

   DKA: also consider going back to the WGs to ask for changes

   action ashok Frame F2F discussion on geolocation and geopriv, with
   help from DKA

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-397 - Frame F2F discussion on geolocation
   and geopriv, with help from DKA [on Ashok Malhotra - due
   2010-03-04].

   <DanC> action-380: done 3 Feb
   [24]http://www.w3.org/mid/C78FAD46.92F4%25daniel.appelquist@vodafone
   .com

     [24] http://www.w3.org/mid/C78FAD46.92F4%25daniel.appelquist@vodafone.com

   <trackbot> ACTION-380 Draft response to Fredrick, short and to the
   point. Larry to review. notes added

   <scribe> scribenick: noah

   JAR: I'm working on issue-57 and maybe issue-62
   ... I think there will be another draft of the HTTP semantics note.

   <DanC> ACTION-201?

   <trackbot> ACTION-201 -- Jonathan Rees to report on status of AWWSW
   discussions -- due 2010-03-02 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [25]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/201

     [25] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/201

   JAR: 2) possible other work on ISSUE-57 (address bar on
   redirections, etc.)

   <DanC> ACTION-282?

   <trackbot> ACTION-282 -- Jonathan Rees to draft a finding on
   metadata architecture. -- due 2010-03-10 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [26]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/282

     [26] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/282

   JAR: 3) metadata architecture (ISSUE-62) action to draft finding.
   Won't know until the 8th.

   <DanC> ACTION-282 due 8 March

   <trackbot> ACTION-282 Draft a finding on metadata architecture. due
   date now 8 March

   <DanC> action-390?

   <trackbot> ACTION-390 -- Daniel Appelquist to review ISSUE-58 and
   suggest next steps, due 2010-03-03 -- due 2010-03-03 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [27]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/390

     [27] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/390

   <DanC> (chinese menu expansion: scalabilityOfURIAccess-58)

   <jar> issue-58?

   <trackbot> ISSUE-58 -- Scalability of URI Access to Resources --
   OPEN

   <trackbot> [28]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/58

     [28] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/58

   DKA: I could do an overview of mobile issues (widgets, etc.)
   ... Should device access APIs (e.g. camera) be Javascript and/or
   REST?

   <jar> scribenick: jar

   dka: Competing architecture proposals in the DAP WG. one from
   Google. Javascript vs. REST

   noah: I'm interested in mobile, let's talk

   <scribe> scribenick: noah

   LM: I'll be at TAG F2F into Thurs morning.

   <jar> masinter: IRIEverywhere issue

   <DanC> issue-27?

   <trackbot> ISSUE-27 -- Should W3C specifications start promoting
   IRIs? -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [29]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/27

     [29] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/27

   <DanC> action-343?

   <trackbot> ACTION-343 -- Larry Masinter to discuss petname
   application to IRI spoofing in public-iri and www-tag -- due
   2010-02-25 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [30]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/343

     [30] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/343

   LM: I want to talk at F2F about IRI everywhere.

   NM: And what would we actually talk about wrt IRIs

   LM: On reflection, probably not much. But we could talk about things
   like whether to close the issue.

   <jar> masinter: Hoping that by then there may be more clarity on the
   IRI issue. How do we go about closing it

   LM: I'd like to prepare an action plan for resolution.

   <scribe> ACTION: Larry to prepare plan for resolving issue-27
   IRIEverywhere for F2F discussion [recorded in
   [31]http://www.w3.org/2010/02/25-tagmem-irc]

     [31] http://www.w3.org/2010/02/25-tagmem-irc

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-398 - Prepare plan for resolving issue-27
   IRIEverywhere for F2F discussion [on Larry Masinter - due
   2010-03-04].

   JK:

   <jar> johnk: We need further discussion on sniffing

   <DanC> (HT an LMM have the actions on sniffing
   [32]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/24

     [32] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/24

   <DanC> )

   <DanC> ACTION-386?

   <trackbot> ACTION-386 -- Larry Masinter to review
   draft-barth-sniff-4 and send comments, cc TAG -- due 2010-02-25 --
   OPEN

   <trackbot> [33]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/386

     [33] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/386

   <jar> . ACTION johnk to frame F2F discussion on sniffing

   <DanC> trackbot, status?

   <scribe> ACTION: John to prepare F2F discussion of sniffing, being
   sure to check status of other pertinent actions [recorded in
   [34]http://www.w3.org/2010/02/25-tagmem-irc]

     [34] http://www.w3.org/2010/02/25-tagmem-irc

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-399 - Prepare F2F discussion of sniffing,
   being sure to check status of other pertinent actions [on John Kemp
   - due 2010-03-04].

   <DanC> action-355?

   <trackbot> ACTION-355 -- John Kemp to explore the degree to which
   AWWW and associated findings tell the interaction story for Web
   Applications -- due 2010-03-10 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [35]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/355

     [35] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/355

   <DanC> action-355 due 8 March

   <trackbot> ACTION-355 Explore the degree to which AWWW and
   associated findings tell the interaction story for Web Applications
   due date now 8 March

   <DanC> action-352 due 8 March

   <trackbot> ACTION-352 Integrate whiteboard drawings into a prose
   document about ways to distribute applications due date now 8 March

   JK: I may have progress on ACTION-355 and/or ACTION-352 for the F2F

   DC: I've been doing some stuff on redirection. Will coordinate with
   JAR.

   <DanC> ACTION-368?

   <trackbot> ACTION-368 -- Dan Connolly to write up version change
   ontology as blog item -- due 2010-02-26 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [36]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/368

     [36] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/368

   TBL: some interest in persistent domains, but probably can't do any
   preparation

   DC: I might manage to do some tabulator stuff

   <DanC> HTML+RDFa, Microdata, and Canvas in HTML WG Tim Berners-Lee
   (Thursday, 25 February)
   [37]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Feb/0871.htm
   l

     [37] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Feb/0871.html

   DC: Tim, do you want to discuss some of your responses to the HTML
   WG?

   NM: Tim, do you want to spend F2F time on this?

   TBL: Don't know yet. Depends in part on wishes of the TAG.

   Any objection to me adjourning now?

   <DanC> +1 adjourn now.

   TBL: I think we should push for distributed extensibility.

   <DKA> ciao

   We are adjourned.

   <masinter> distributed extensibility requires orthogonality of
   specifications

   <masinter> without it you don't have modulairity

   <jar> gotta go, sorry

   <timbl> Fred Brooks, Mythical Man Month

   big committee -> big language

   [38]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/02/18-minutes#item02

     [38] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/02/18-minutes#item02

   <raman> n

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: John to prepare F2F discussion of sniffing, being sure
   to check status of other pertinent actions [recorded in
   [39]http://www.w3.org/2010/02/25-tagmem-irc]
   [NEW] ACTION: Larry to prepare plan for resolving issue-27
   IRIEverywhere for F2F discussion [recorded in
   [40]http://www.w3.org/2010/02/25-tagmem-irc]

     [39] http://www.w3.org/2010/02/25-tagmem-irc
     [40] http://www.w3.org/2010/02/25-tagmem-irc

   [End of minutes]
     _________________________________________________________


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