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Draft minutes of TAG teleconference, 12th November 2009

From: John Kemp <john@jkemp.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 08:24:19 -0500
Message-ID: <4B02A403.10607@jkemp.net>
To: www-tag@w3.org
Draft minutes may be found at:

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/11/12-minutes.html

And below:

Regards,

- johnk

  - DRAFT -
TAG Weekly, 12th November 2009
12 Nov 2009

Agenda

See also: IRC log
Attendees

Present
     Noah Mendelsohn, Dan Connolly, Henry Thompson, Ashok Malhotra, John 
Kemp

Regrets
     TV Raman, Larry Masinter, Tim Berners-Lee, Jonathan Rees (partial)
Chair
     Noah Mendelsohn
Scribe
     John Kemp

Contents

     * Topics
          1. Convene
          2. Follow-up on TPAC
          3. Planning F2F agenda
     * Summary of Action Items

<scribe> Scribe: John Kemp

<scribe> ScribeNick: johnk

<ht> HST will chair (scribe note-- on the 19th)

<ht> It will be short

<ht> Yes, with help from DanC, I hope

<DanC> ok
Convene

NM: preparing agenda for next F2F

<ht> Confirm f2f is 8--10, right?

<scribe> ACTION: noah to check logistics for December F2F [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-tagmem-irc]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-333 - Check logistics for December F2F [on 
Noah Mendelsohn - due 2009-11-19].

NM: no TAG meeting on 26th Nov due to US Thanksgiving

<DanC> (did Ashok confirm scribing next week?)

<Ashok> No, but I can do so now
Follow-up on TPAC

NM: have our issues been raised adequately with HTML WG, or do we need 
further TAG follow-up?
... three issues
... language on use of text/html media type

<ht> HST is tracking the text/html == polyglot doc issue

NM: are we happy with progress?

ht: I'm happy unless my action to track raises a further issue

<DanC> ACTION-309?

<trackbot> ACTION-309 -- Henry S. Thompson to henry to bring back 
proposed TAG pushback on sniffing and HTTP bis draft 
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/trac/export/663/draft-ietf-httpbis/latest/p3-payload.html, 
or his recommendation that we leave it alone -- due 2009-11-18 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/309

NM: Larry's issue was regarding whether previous versions of HTML were 
covered by the media type registration associated with HTML5

<DanC> (hixie pointed to 1.4, IIRC)

NM: Hixie suggested current text met this issue
... Larry pushed back

danc: TimBL had a slightly different, but related issue

NM: perhaps better to schedule it for F2F?

I agree, since I haven't had time to look at this issue

<DanC> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/53

NM: text that we would find in HTML editors draft is what they plan to use?

danc: would like to find any resolution to the recorded issue

NM: we could take it to email?

<DanC> . ACTION victim: raise html/media type registration [slow down so 
somebody can type]

<scribe> ACTION: henry to start an email thread regarding the treatment 
of pre-HTML5 versions in the media type registration text of HTML5 
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-tagmem-irc]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-334 - Start an email thread regarding the 
treatment of pre-HTML5 versions in the media type registration text of 
HTML5 [on Henry S. Thompson - due 2009-11-19].

NM: second issue - microdata - assume that current action is sufficient?

<DanC> microdata bug

NM: Henry opened a bug at the TAG F2F after substantive discussion 
(8220) linked from agenda
... third issue - data-* attributes
... should data-* attributes be retained in HTML?
... we have new information from the WG as to why they are included in HTML

NM (after discussion with the WG)

ht: my understanding is that data-* is there to allow people to get 
stuff into the DOM for their own purposes

NM: that may be it's intended use, but it would be easy enough to use it 
in the same way that microdata could be used

ht: that is a criticism of the general concept of distributed extensibility

<Zakim> DanC, you wanted to speak to "local", author-defined stuff vs global

danc: there are things like the 'class' attribute
... I don't have to agree with anybody what that "means"

I just got booted off the phone call

yes

and for some reason calling again is failing

<noahm> DC: In the beginning, the class attribute was for the author's 
own purposes (and I was happy)

<noahm> DC: Nobody else had to agree to it. Then things like 
microformates poached on that, inviting tools to give a global 
interpretation, e.g. per VCard

OK, I'm back

<noahm> DC: This then says that, for private use, you can get anything 
except things like VEvent, VCard. Think I've heard Ian Hickson suggest 
you search the Web globally for conflicts.

<noahm> DC: There were things that you only ascribed meaning to at your 
own risk. HTML WG seems to say the same.

<jar_> yes, this is a classic binding/use matching problem...

<noahm> DC: That does not directly compete with RDFa; different use 
cases. It competes with the situation where data-* migrates into 
something like microformats.

<noahm> DC: That said, do I think data-* does more harm than good? Hmmm.

<noahm> DC: I guess I'd leave it to the HTML WG.

ok

<Zakim> ht, you wanted to say the extensibility is better than data-

ht: you can say that data-* is an ad-hoc partial solution to 
extensibility and we'd like a better one

<Zakim> noahm, you wanted to talk about small vs. big solutions.

NM: would be some merit is saying that a full general extensibility 
solution would cover this
... data-* is more limited but likely easier to use than a more general 
solution
... easy DOM accessors available which might not be for more general 
mechanisms

<noahm> NM: for its intended purposes

DC: something better would not involve global co-ordination

<jar_> until 19:55 CEST

DC: intended use-case is "I don't have to coordinate with anybody"

<Zakim> DanC, you wanted to say that something uri-based is worse than 
data-* for its intended purpose in that it involves global coordination

<Zakim> ht, you wanted to reply to DanC

<jar_> (minutes editor: the "until ..." can obviously be deleted, as can 
this)

HT: I think we agree (DanC) but URI minting doesn't involve spinning up 
a new server
... not worried about name collisions because it's for my private use

DC: example.org is not yours to choose, for example

<DanC> ("non-unique-data-names.org" _is_ global coordination, still.)

NM: example.com use is not the only problem, and could be solved by 
registering the name
... proposals about this issue?

<DanC> +0 to conveying our earlier resolution; I nominate Henry to do it.

NM: I'd like to put before the group a new resolution to override the 
previous resolution

HT: I'm happy to postpone this until the more general situation around 
namespaces is clearer

I agree with that FWIW

NM: propose to do what Henry said - change our resolution to say that we 
will reconsider data-* as we learn more about distributed extensibility 
in HTML

<DanC> (process wonk note: all this discussion was out of order if our 
earlier decision stands; it was vacated when we started discussion. )

HT: I would prefer to put this on the F2F

<DanC> . ACTION: Dan remind us about data-* after dust on distributed 
extensibility has settled

<noahm> Proposed resolution: The TAG, for now, withdraws its intention 
to request removal of data-*, but intends to revisit as the distributed 
extensbility story becomes clearer

NM: I would like to be informed by the group before I make this resolution

<DanC> either (a) all this was advice to the chair re whether to 
reconsider (vacate) our earlier decision, or (b) the chair accepted the 
new information was sufficient to reconsider the earlier decision

<noahm> (c) the chair, informed by this discussion, will not convey a 
TAG decision on data-* until we have time to review today's analyis with 
Tim & Dan @F2F

<DanC> ACTION: Dan remind us about data-* after dust on distributed 
extensibility has settled [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-tagmem-irc]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-335 - Remind us about data-* after dust on 
distributed extensibility has settled [on Dan Connolly - due 2009-11-19].

<noahm> (c) the chair, informed by this discussion, will not convey a 
TAG decision on data-* until either a) we have new information on dist. 
extensibility in HTML 5 or b) some WG member requests an agenda item

<noahm> Informally agreed.

<DanC> maybe not "dust has settled", but just "technical progress is 
available"

<DanC> action-335 due 2009-01-01

<trackbot> ACTION-335 Remind us about data-* after dust on distributed 
extensibility has settled due date now 2009-01-01

NM: feel that our progress on distributed extensibility was also unfinished

DC: would like to hear about two relevant actions

<DanC> ACTION-313?

<trackbot> ACTION-313 -- John Kemp to talk to Balisage participants 
about XML namespace work, discuss TAG interest in this area, and 
summarize -- due 2009-11-18 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/313

<noahm> NM: in particular, do we have clear next steps or agreement not 
to do anything fo now.

<DanC> (the other is ACTION-327 , Henry)

<noahm> JK: Yes, I talked to 2-3 people who went to Balisage. Sense I 
got was that Liam made a presentation, there was discussion, no action 
after that.

<noahm> JK: These people were people mostly from the XML community.

<noahm> JK: I marked the action pending review.

<DanC> for indexing purposes:

<DanC> ISSUE-54?

<trackbot> ISSUE-54 -- Tag soup integration -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/54

I note that there has been discussed of Liam's doc in HTML WG

<DanC> ACTION-327?

<trackbot> ACTION-327 -- Henry S. Thompson to review Microsoft's 
namespaces in HTML 5 proposal -- due 2009-11-13 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/327

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Nov/0334.html 
(Liam's message to HTML)

<noahm> HT: I'm tempted to noodle on proposals that prebind prefixes 
rather than the default namespace.

<noahm> The problem with fixing just prefixes is that it doesn't help 
much with the <mosaic:img> --> <img> evolution. Otherwise, I think it 
may be the right thing.

NM: do we want to assign actions on Liam's doc?

close action-313

<trackbot> ACTION-313 Talk to Balisage participants about XML namespace 
work, discuss TAG interest in this area, and summarize closed

<noahm> NM: OK, we're closing 313. For now ACTION-327 is our only 
scheduled followup on distributed extensibility.

NM: there is larger question of spreadsheet containing potential HTML issues

<DanC> ACTION-330: take a look the review topics spreadsheet

<trackbot> ACTION-330 Prepare Dec f2f agenda in collaboration with Noah 
etc. notes added
Planning F2F agenda

NM: would like to focus on other two themes
... arch of web apps
... and metadata

<DanC> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/agenda

DC: reified major themes as 'products' in tracker
... HTML5 review
... grouped some under issues

<DanC> ACTION-277: about patent policy

<trackbot> ACTION-277 Ensure any issue is resolved with Art notes added

(reviewing action items linked from 
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/agenda)

<DanC> action-306?

<trackbot> ACTION-306 -- Larry Masinter to work with JK and AM to update 
Web APplication architecture outline based on discussions at TAG 
meetings -- due 2009-12-01 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/306

<noahm> From the unpublished mintes of Friday:

<noahm> <noahm> Ashok will help Raman frame the F2F agenda and 
preparation on Web Application Architecture

<noahm> <noahm> Ashok will frame the F2F agenda and preparation on 
metadata access

<noahm> <noahm> :Larry will frame the F2F agenda and preparation on 
metadata formats/representations

<ht> HST is leaving

<DanC> action-306?

<trackbot> ACTION-306 -- Ashok Malhotra to work with Raman, LM, JK to 
update Web APplication architecture outline based on discussions at TAG 
meetings -- due 2009-12-01 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/306

<DanC> action-281?

<trackbot> ACTION-281 -- Ashok Malhotra to keep an eye on progress of 
link header draft, report to TAG, warn us of problems (ISSUE-62) -- due 
2009-10-30 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/281

<DanC> . ACTION Ashok: prep Metadata Architecture for Dec f2f

<DanC> ACTION: Ashok to prep Metadata Architecture for Dec f2f [recorded 
in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-tagmem-irc]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-336 - Prep Metadata Architecture for Dec f2f 
[on Ashok Malhotra - due 2009-11-19].

<DanC> ACTION: Larry to frame the F2F agenda and preparation on metadata 
formats/representations [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-tagmem-irc]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-337 - frame the F2F agenda and preparation on 
metadata formats/representations [on Larry Masinter - due 2009-11-19].

NM: eg. identify early reading people should be doing
... difficulty in using tracker lately has been people not keeping 
issues up to date
... works fine if you send email mentioning the tracker item

<DanC> (yeah, email that mentions the actions in tracker notation works 
best)

NM: use tracker!
... minuting from F2F - where are we?
... i) can we find authoritative logs?
... ii) who will format them?

<noahm> http://www.w3.org/2009/11/02-tagmem-irc

NM: ADJOURN

<DanC> . ACTION Noah: format minutes 5 Nov

<noahm> ACTION: Noah to format Tim's minutes from 6 November base on his 
private copy of the log [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-tagmem-irc]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-338 - Format Tim's minutes from 6 November 
base on his private copy of the log [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2009-11-19].

<DanC> action-338?

<trackbot> ACTION-338 -- Noah Mendelsohn to send Tim's minutes from 6 
November to Dan for formatting -- due 2009-11-19 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/338

<DanC> and I sent you mail, noah
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Ashok to prep Metadata Architecture for Dec f2f [recorded 
in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-tagmem-irc]
[NEW] ACTION: Dan remind us about data-* after dust on distributed 
extensibility has settled [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-tagmem-irc]
[NEW] ACTION: henry to start an email thread regarding the treatment of 
pre-HTML5 versions in the media type registration text of HTML5 
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-tagmem-irc]
[NEW] ACTION: Larry to frame the F2F agenda and preparation on metadata 
formats/representations [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-tagmem-irc]
[NEW] ACTION: noah to check logistics for December F2F [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-tagmem-irc]
[NEW] ACTION: Noah to format Tim's minutes from 6 November base on his 
private copy of the log [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-tagmem-irc]

[End of minutes]
Received on Tuesday, 17 November 2009 13:24:58 GMT

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