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TAG minutes from 11th September 2008

From: Williams, Stuart (HP Labs, Bristol) <skw@hp.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 15:34:45 +0000
To: "www-tag@w3.org" <www-tag@w3.org>
Message-ID: <233101CD2D78D64E8C6691E90030E5C81B6C3457F7@GVW1120EXC.americas.hpqcorp.net>

Draft minutes from our meeting of 11th September 2008 are available in plain text below and at:


My thanks to our scribe.

Best regards

Stuart Williams
Hewlett-Packard Limited registered Office: Cain Road, Bracknell, Berks RG12 1HN
Registered No: 690597 England


      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                               - DRAFT -

                           TAG Weekly Telcon

11 Sep 2008


      [2] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/09/11-agenda

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-tagmem-irc


          Stuart_Williams, Jonathan_Rees, T.V._Raman, Henry_Thompson,
          Ashok_Malhotra, Dan_Connolly, Dave_Orchard, Noah_Mendelsohn

          Noah, Norm, DaveO(partial)

          Stuart Williams

          Ashok Malhotra


     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]Convene
         2. [6]binaryXML-30 (ISSUE-30)
         3. [7]UrnsAndRegistries-50 (ISSUE-50)
         4. [8]Self-Describing Web
         5. [9]F2F Agenda
         6. [10]abbreviatedURI-56 (ISSUE-56)
     * [11]Summary of Action Items

   <skw> Scribe: Ashok Malhotra


   <scribe> scribenick: Ashok

   No comments on agenda

   Resolution: Minutes from Sep 4 approved

     [12] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/04-tagmem-minutes

   Next week call a risk. Regets from Tim. Stuart may not be able to
   make it

   HT: Use the time to read our documents

   Cancel next week's meeting

   <jar> +1 use the time to read

   Next meeting f2f

   Raman: If we are serious abt this, all TAG members should read the
   HTML spec

   DanC: Please let's finish reading list and Agenda for f2f

binaryXML-30 (ISSUE-30)

   <Zakim> ht, you wanted to acknowledge my EXI actions

   HT: I will read these on the 'plane and make a recommendation on
   what we should do

   DanC: Last, we said tell us how you are better than gzip

   HT: That's where we are, the ball is bak in our court.

   SKW: We will discuss this again at our FTF.

UrnsAndRegistries-50 (ISSUE-50)

   <DanC> (though Dec sounds wierd... I thought our request was since

   HT: I'm working on a new document. Shd have it ready middle on next

   <DanC> close action-167

   <trackbot> ACTION-167 S to start a thread on non-DNS authority
   resolution on www-tag closed

   DanC: What's happening with XRIs?

   SKW: Summarizes situation

   We have not had a formal proposal saying would you be happy with ...

   SKW: We had a discussion on how the discussion was going

   <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to check whether skw meant it when he said
   "prefix", since DNS names go least-significant-first

   <DanC> does either booth or bradly advocate an actual prefix?

   <Zakim> ht, you wanted to say there's one thing we will need to
   chase no matter what

   <ht> Abstract Identifier document:

     [13] http://wiki.oasis-open.org/xri/AbstractIdentifierArchitecture

   SKW: That's not the proposal

   <jar> (Out of order) saying "[14]http://xri.*/*" are XRIS is same as
   saying "[15]http://*/ark:*" are ARKs ...

     [14] http://xri.*/*
     [15] http://*/ark:*

   <ht> And I think there is _some_ room to argue that both of these
   are OK, if not ideal

Self-Describing Web

   Noah has incorporated feedback from Norm and SKW:

   SKW: Norm and I would be supportive of publication

   <Zakim> ht, you wanted to ask a question

   ht: In a discussion with a student I realized ...

   <ht> I believe the following: "FYN works iff every party to the
   story is a) publically accountable

   <ht> and b) aware of the dependency of the FYN story on their part
   of it.

   <ht> "

   <DanC> I think you can follow-your-nose into policies and such that
   aren't world-readable

   DanC: I would not say 'publically accounatable"

   HT: The parties have to be publically accountable

   SKW: The draft does not say this

   HT: I would like to discuss this

   SKW: Pl. send comment

   DanC: I disagree for 3 reasons

   <DanC> (I ran out after 2)

   <DanC> (1) need not be world-readable

   <DanC> (2) the URI for text/plain isn't actually critical path

   <DanC> ... currently

   <DanC> (though it's nice that the text/plain full URI is in an RFC)

   HT: I will send mail on this

   <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to think about whether RDFa is critical
   path: if we leave it aside, what's the audience/purpose? and to

   DanC: How can we finish without RDFa story?
   ... I'm not sure story holds up

   SKW: can we document missing link and encourage them to put it in

   <skw> [16]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/09/f2fkc-agenda

     [16] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/09/f2fkc-agenda

F2F Agenda

   SKW: Talks about the f2f agenda. Thanks Raman for his help

   DanC: I would like to negotiate the reading list now

   <DanC> I hear from skw: urnsregs, binaryxml, html*,

   <DanC> digest of ?

   SKW: Should read binary XML specs, HTML spec, collected digest of
   refernces from Raman's thread

   <DanC> self-describing web draft

   <DanC> passwords in the clear

   Self-describing Web, Password in Clear, Versioning

   <DanC> versioning revision from david

   Need two readers for Binary XML, HT is one.

   URNsAndRegistries-50 ... HT writing paper. Due Tuesday. Shd be read
   by f2f

   <DanC> * tim's bit

   HT: We should all have read Tim's paper

   <skw> also had an explicit request from David for Jar's formal

   <ht> s/alll/all/

   <DanC> "the document"... one document on versioning?

   <DanC> DO nominates JAR's formalism

   DaveO: What is new is Jonathan's formalism. Recommend people read
   this by f2f

   <DanC> DO: key chapter is ch5

   DaveO: Please review Chapter 5. That is new and is key

   <DanC> HT nominates SVG and HTML thread from public-html... a dozen

   HT: Read SVG and HTML thread. Read 10 msgs and get a feeling of the

   <DanC> TVR 2nds... long thread... read for motivations

   <DanC> (looks like TVR's agenda input subsumes HT's suggestion to
   read a thread)

   TVR: Read HTML spec with a view thru the structuring lens I proposed

   JR: Is there a document that tells why W3C got involved in html5

   <noah> Are you discussing reading list?


     [17] http://wiki.oasis-open.org/xri/AbstractIdentifierArchitecture

   <jar> ?

   DanC: I can point to formal mataerial but that's not what you want

   <DanC> on mime types... a section of the html spec

   <DanC> pwinc fri

   <noah> Friday's OK if short, I think.

   <DanC> (thanks; I was just gonna ask for irc convirmation)

   Noah: Are we all supposed to read whole HTML spec?

   <DanC> nm nominates thread on meeting goals

   Noah: Please read thread on Tag Soup

   HT: Norm is not coming to Kansas City

   <skw> I think that the thread Noah referred to is based at:

     [18] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2008Aug/0019.html

   DanC: I will send mail before EOD after editing agenda page

   Possible topic GenricResources-53

   Content negotiation and Abstract Documents

   Not on agenda currently. You can lobby me.

   TVR: Steve said he was pulling in my TPAC proposal

abbreviatedURI-56 (ISSUE-56)

   SKW: Asks abt status of CURIE comments

   <DanC> (anybody have a summary of the comment? the subject line was
   a generic "comments on X")

   Noah: That's for responder to say

   SKW: Summarizez comments

   Editorial: Qnames never inted as attribute values. Some discussion
   on this

   <DanC> (pls promote that "main substantive comment" to the subject

   SKW: Definition of XML Schema datatype

   <ht> Please remember that we have already fed back on this point,

     [19] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2008JanMar/0014.html

   <skw> ?

   AM: Noah you had a comment on lack of clarity between CURIE and URI
   where there is ambiguity

   Noah: I sent this as a personal comment. If no objection, I can add
   to my note

   <jar> the whole point of safecurie was so that they can be put in
   uri contexts

   <DanC> yes, now that I understand the comment, it seems to miss the
   point of safecuries

   <noah> Well, it hijacks the use of [ in everyone's languages.

   Raman: I'm uncomfotable with this. We need to allow new syntax in
   old contexts

   jar: If there was no intention of extensing URI content there would
   be no SafeCURIEs

   <jar> RDFa already would violate a prohibition on safecuries. It's
   too late to prohibit safecuries

   HT: We should be careful abt distinguishing between CURIE's and

   <DanC> <ht> Please remember that we have already fed back on this
   point, see

     [20] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2008JanMar/0014.html

   HT: We should not go back on that advice

   TVR: The way Noah phrased it it sets a very high bar for new syntax

   <jar> Two questions here! (1) CURIEs in URI contexts? (No.) (2)
   SafeCURIEs in URI contexts? (RDFa requires.)

   <Zakim> noah, you wanted to say implying safecuries can be used in
   existing languages where URIs are expected hijacks the use of [ in
   those languages.

   Noah: Explains his POV ... I should open my spec to other syntax

   <jar> relative URIs can start with [, yes?

   They should make clear that these things are not URis

   DaveO: Supports Noah. CURIEs cannot be wedged into existing

   <jar> I repeat: There are two questions here! (1) CURIEs in URI
   contexts? (No.) (2) SafeCURIEs in URI contexts? (RDFa requires.)

   <DanC> jar, does RDFa use <a href="[safecuri]">? I see deployment
   problems there.

   <skw> [21]http://www.w3.org/mid/48B810F4.60807@aptest.com

     [21] http://www.w3.org/mid/48B810F4.60807@aptest.com

   DaveO: Must specify how CURIEs and URI are disambiguated

   <jar> no, but it allows safecuries in other uri contexts, I believe.
   will check.

   <DanC> ok. deployment considerations for a/@href are somewhat

   TVR: XSLT uses { } is attribute value templates. Use of a special

   <jar> ok, URIorSafeCURIE only occurs in attributes that are newly
   added by RDFa

   <noah> I did propose text to Shane on 8/29:

   <noah> <proposed>

   <noah> CURIEs and safe-CURIEs map to IRIs, but neither a CURIE nor a

   <noah> <italic>is</italic> an IRI or URI. Accordingly, CURIEs and

   <noah> MUST NOT be used as values for attributes that are specified
   to contain

   <noah> only URIs, IRIs, URI-references, IRI-references, etc.
   Specifications for

   <noah> particular attribute values or other content MAY be written
   to allow

   <noah> either CURIEs or IRIs (or URIs, etc.). The specifications for

   <noah> languages MUST provide rules for disambiguition in situations
   where the

   <noah> same string could be interpreted as either a CURIE or an IRI.
   One way to

   <noah> do this is to require that all CURIEs be expressed as

   <noah> implying that all unbracketed strings are to be interpreted
   as IRIs.

   <noah> </proposed>

   TVR: I'm mostly OK with this.

   <DanC> x:y

   JAR: I'm bothered by saying "CURIES are not IRIs". There are
   bstrings that are both.

   <DanC> noodling... "neither every CURIE nor every safe-CURIE
   <italic>is</italic> an IRI or URI"

   Noah: I will put this in a note to the TAG list and people can

   <noah> So, Stuart, what's the next step on the response.

   SKW: Let's conclude on email.

   <noah> SKW: Noah to redraft considering Stuart's proposal on intent
   of qnames and add 8/29 draft text on using CURIEs where URIs

   SKW: DanC, any progress on 171

   Dan: No.

   <DanC> p.s. any hosting issues?

   <DanC> hmm... decisions decisions...

   <DanC> collect all preparation materials in one place in the

   <DanC> or tuck them under the relevant items?

   <DanC> I lean toward tucking, so far

   <DanC> hmm... how to do a crawl-and-zip...?

Summary of Action Items

   [End of minutes]

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