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tensions between copy-and-paste and follow-your-nose [Fwd: Re: profile attribute and conformance (copy-and-paste details)]

From: Dan Connolly <connolly@w3.org>
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 17:50:57 -0500
To: www-tag <www-tag@w3.org>
Cc: public-grddl-comments <public-grddl-comments@w3.org>
Message-Id: <1220655057.6800.169.camel@pav.lan>
Noah, while you've got the self-describing web stuff swapped
in... attached find an example of follow-your-nose
issues within a document. (cf xmlFunctions ISSUE-34).

I don't expect it's worth space in the finding, but I'd
like you to look it over and let me know if it makes sense.


p.s. I don't know if this crossed your radar...

The details of data in documents: GRDDL, profiles, and HTML5
http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/08/the_details_of_data_in_documen.html


-- 
Dan Connolly, W3C http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/
gpg D3C2 887B 0F92 6005 C541  0875 0F91 96DE 6E52 C29E

attached mail follows:


On Thu, 2008-09-04 at 10:23 -0700, Ryan King wrote:
> On Sep 4, 2008, at 7:54 AM, Henri Sivonen wrote:
> > In general, having the URI at the top of the page source and the  
> > microformat later in the body goes against the view source copy and  
> > paste way of learning HTML and also goes against the restrictions of  
> > blogging systems that allow people to paste stuff somewhere in the  
> > body but not control the head of the page.
> 
> To get around this issue, there's a proposal on the microformats wiki  
> [1] that would allow profile URIs to be placed in the body.

That will probably work in a lot of cases, but consider something like:

  <h2>Exhibit A: the fraudulent check</h2>
  <blockquote>
   <dl class='hpayment'>
    <dt>Pay to the order of:</dt>
    <dd class="hcard">Ben Fraudster</dd>
    <dt>Amount</dt>
    <dd>$10,000</dd>
    <dt>rounting number</dt>
    <dd>...</dd>
    <dt>account number</dt>
    <dd>...</dd>
   </dl>
   <p>This is a <a rel="profile" href=
          "http://www.nccusl.org.example/edraft-profile">UCC electronic
draft</a>.
  </blockquote>

The check is quoted within another legal document. The author
of the outer legal document doesn't mean to offer payment
but to say "look at that check; it's bogus."

I expect this sort of thing is in the noise for upwards of 80% of
the cases, so I don't expect it to get much consideration
in the design of HTML 5.

But GRDDL was designed as a long-tail mechanism.
The GRDDL WG looked at a number of ways to push the profile
signal down from the top of the document to facilitate cut-and-paste
but found that each of them conflicted with the
"faithful rendition" requirement and postponed the issue.

http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl/#sec_rend

issue-tx-element: is there a way to push the grddl:transformation
attribute down from the document element to individual elements without
breaking the chain of authority? 
POSTPONED 2007-01-17
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/issues#issue-tx-element

I had a tooth-brushing-thought about using visible icons somehow...
but I haven't really finished it...

> -ryan
> 
> 1. http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-profile




-- 
Dan Connolly, W3C http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/
gpg D3C2 887B 0F92 6005 C541  0875 0F91 96DE 6E52 C29E
Received on Friday, 5 September 2008 22:51:14 GMT

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