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Draft Minutes from TAG Telcon of 6th November 2008 Available

From: Williams, Stuart (HP Labs, Bristol) <skw@hp.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 12:16:58 +0000
To: "www-tag@w3.org" <www-tag@w3.org>
Message-ID: <233101CD2D78D64E8C6691E90030E5C81B6EEB493D@GVW1120EXC.americas.hpqcorp.net>

Draft minutes of TAG telcon of 6th November 2008 are available at:

        http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/11/06-minutes

and as plain text below. Thans to Jonathan Rees for scribing.

Regards

Stuart Williams

Hewlett-Packard Limited registered Office: Cain Road, Bracknell, Berks RG12 1HN
Registered No: 690597 England
================================================================================

                               - DRAFT -

                              TAG Weekly

06 Nov 2008

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/11/06-agenda

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-tagmem-irc

Attendees

   Present
          Raman, Stuart, Noah_Mendelsohn, Jonathan_Rees, Timbl,
          Ashok_Malhotra, Ht, DanC, dorchard

   Regrets

   Chair
          Stuart Williams

   Scribe
          Jonathan Rees

Contents

     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]Convene
         2. [6]Issue urnsAndRegistries-50 (ISSUE-50)
         3. [7]Web Architecture and Web Services Activity
         4. [8]Issue tagSoupIntegration-54 (ISSUE-54)
         5. [9]uriBasedPackageAccess-61
         6. [10]Dec F2F - Call for Agenda Items
     * [11]Summary of Action Items
     _________________________________________________________

   <Stuart> Scribe: Jonathan Rees

   <Ashok> I will join in a few minutes

   <Stuart> scribenick: jar

Convene

   Taking up item 1 - ACTION-186 [on JAR to review CURIE draft]

   jar: I think we're all done with that [action discharged].

   <noah> Getting back to the CURIE question: I think my note at
   [12]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Oct/0024.html
   conveyed our formal response, and that there is nothing else I need
   do to fulfull my CURIE-related action.

     [12] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Oct/0024.html

   skw: Minutes need a bit more work. Defer until next meeting.

   (No volunteer to scribe, skw to find one over the week, ht maybe)

   Skip item 2 "Responding to "Content Transformation Guidelines" LC
   Review".

Issue urnsAndRegistries-50 (ISSUE-50)

   skw: Please provide early feedback to XRI-TC

   ht: I have reviewed the XRI as relative URIs proposal
   ... Seems to be OK. Their abstract/concrete distinction is sort of
   odd, but that's OK.
   ... Where do the base URIs come from?
   ... If base URI is a URN, as they suggest, that is odd.

   <timbl> There is a suggestion to absolutize against a URN, but URNs
   don't use /, they use :

   ht: They would be better off not going there.

   <ht> Tim, yes, that's one of the problems they have already noticed

   <Zakim> timbl, you wanted to mention that a lot of systems can be
   looked at by regarding things like mime types, isbns etc as being
   relative to a http: base which has not yet been defined

   timbl: If XRI (relative URI) goes into an HREF, OK... otherwise
   (other contexts) not clear that there are many tools that will
   understand them [POSSIBLE SCRIBE ERROR. SEE HT COMMENT BELOW.]

   <Stuart> trackbot, status

   <ht> HST thinks Timbl said: If XRI as relative URI is used in href
   or elsewhere where a general tool will try to use them, baseURI is a
   problem; but in special contexts defined by host languages, they can
   mandate a base URI no problem -- a bit like IANA and media types,
   for example

   <Stuart> action henry s. Send public comment to www-tag about the
   XRI proposal and the establishment of base URI.

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-189 - S. Send public comment to www-tag
   about the XRI proposal and the establishment of base URI. [on Henry
   S. Thompson - due 2008-11-13].

Web Architecture and Web Services Activity

   skw: There are divergent views on this within the TAG.

   <Zakim> noah, you wanted to ask about status of services activity
   process-wise

   noah: The proposed work is architecturally questionable
   ... degree to which it duplicates HTTP
   ... whether URIs are used appropriately inside of EPRs
   ... is GET being used appropriately when used as part of the ws
   protocol(s)

   <Zakim> dorchard, you wanted to re-iterate my proposal for charter
   and document status

   noah: Appropriate to draw attention to the way these mechanisms are
   being used.

   <timbl> +1

   DO: It doesn't fit well into web architecture. But membership wants
   to go ahead. Maybe TAG should opt out?
   ... I've put proposals forward

   (note to minutes editor: find a URL to same)

   <noah> Hmm. I'm unconvinced that the TAG should set a precedent of
   committing NOT to review the impact of particular bits of W3C work
   on Web arch.

   (note to minutes editor:
   [13]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2008Oct/0134.html )

     [13] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2008Oct/0134.html

   ashok: The EPR issue has been brought up. Not useful to once again
   bring it up.
   ... I'm sympathetic to the GET / metadata issue.
   ... Saying the TAG won't review something might set a funny
   precedent

   <Zakim> dorchard, you wanted to respond why it's important to bring
   up URIs

   DO: The response was very clear: They want to use EPRs as
   identifiers for things - targets of operations
   ... They want a nonuniform interface - have opted out of web
   architecture
   ... What W3C does is not necessarily the same as web architecture.
   Is TAG responsible for the former or the latter?
   ... TAG is caught.
   ... I'm suggesting a path forward. By saying it's out of scope, TAG
   avoids compromising its position.

   raman: Be careful about painting such a black and white picture.
   Wouldn't everyone opt out of web architecture if they could?

   <Zakim> noah, you wanted to talk about setting expectations early

   raman: The architecture [guardian] role needs to be earned

   noah: Having a note about ws-addressing is better than not having
   one.
   ... The WS activity is working close to the core of the web
   ... There's value in making statements

   timbl: We had a discussion, and neither group seems interested in
   continuing it.

   <DanC> (perhaps rather than the charter and status section, it would
   be better to have the WG itself explain why not follow
   [14]http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-webarch-20041215/#pr-use-uris )

     [14] http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-webarch-20041215/#pr-use-uris

   <Zakim> Stuart, you wanted to ask Dave O whether it is truely the
   case that EPR ref params are selective on resource or carry
   essential parameter that enable/facilitate access?

   timbl: Maybe they've done what they have to do. [?? The scribe is
   maybe not quite understanding TimBL again. ??]

   skw: Noah's 3 principled points are good, perhaps could be
   reiterated
   ... Are EPRs really name-like, or just subparameters?

   ashok: What's the bottom line here? We're not asking them to stop;
   maybe we're asking them to add some words somewhere?

   <noah> I think we were asked to signal early what our concerns would
   be. I think we should signal that they would potentially be in the 3
   areas mentioned.

   skw: Not clear that any proposal would command consensus of the TAG

   noah: We've been asked to air issues early. Propose the 3 areas

   ht: Point to, or quote, or be consistent with the way we finally
   settled the EPR issue
   ... You can take web services away from web architecture because
   it's not the same ballpark [what the TAG said last time?]

   ashok: Why we're bringing this up again now?

   <DanC> (hmm... looking thru
   [15]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/47 for "what we
   said last time")

     [15] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/47

   DO: Because they ignored us last time, and now they're reinventing
   HTTP using EPRs (ws-transfer...)
   ... Don't want to support just saying what we said before. Did no
   good

   <Stuart> What we said before is in:
   [16]http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/REC-ws-addr-core-20060509/#resourceide
   ntification

     [16] http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/REC-ws-addr-core-20060509/#resourceidentification

   DO: Maybe better being silent

   <Stuart> "The Architecture of the World Wide Web, Volume One [AoWWW]
   recommends [AoWWW, Section 2] the use of URIs to identify resources.
   Using abstract properties of an EPR other than [destination] to
   identify resources is contrary to this recommendation. In certain
   circumstances, such a use of additional properties may be convenient
   or beneficial; however, when building systems, the benefits or
   convenience of identifying a resource using reference parameters
   should be care

   <noah> I don't need to beat this to death. Slight preference for
   going on record, but I can see it either way.

   noah: 1. Use EPRs appropriately 2. Don't divide the web (via 2
   protocols) 3. Proper use of HTTP when it's used

   <DanC> (hmm... scanning the proposed charter, I find "The
   referencing of metadata must allow for both EPR or URL style
   references. " )

   DO: Not in favor of saying anything like that

   <Stuart> Three possible TAG directions: Say nothing; Dave style
   proposal; Noah style proposal reiterating principles

   <noah> I feel we're going in circles. Pros and cons of either
   approach have been covered. Let's pick one.

   <timbl> PROPSAL 2564: Add some wording to the boilerplate in the
   charter indicating that the TAG is not reviewing the charter as it
   regards that as outside web architecture

   (poll)

   <timbl> I would prefer something in the boiler plate .. not do
   nothering

   <timbl> I support proposal 2564.

   <timbl> I can live with doing nothing.

   <timbl> Stuart: PROPOSAL 3: Reiterate principles of web architecture
   on www-tag as a way of putting it on the table.

   <timbl> I can live with any outcome

   <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to speak to boilerplate vs engagement

   danc: Better to expect the WG to consider architecture concerns

   <DanC> "WS-Transfer resources are potentially identified by more
   than just a URI, making them unsuitable for referencing and use in
   other Web technologies, e.g. in the context of traditional Web links
   or RDF assertions."

   <noah> What about relationship to HTTP?

   <noah> Say anything about using methods right, etc.?

   <DanC> yes, excerpted from
   [17]http://www.w3.org/Submission/2006/04/Comment

     [17] http://www.w3.org/Submission/2006/04/Comment

   danc: Propose to endorse above text (team response to submission)

   <noah> How about, in addition: "Also, there is a risk, depending how
   WS-Transfer operates over HTTP, that WS-Transfer might not benefit
   from existing deployed infrastructure such as HTTP proxies."

   <DanC> +1 on the amendment

   RESOLUTION: Regarding the WS-Transfer submission: (1) We agree with
   the Team Comment ([18]http://www.w3.org/Submission/2006/04/Comment)
   noting that WS-Transfer resources are potentially identified by more
   than just a URI, making them unsuitable for referencing and use in
   other Web technologies, e.g. in the context of traditional Web links
   or RDF assertions. (2) There is a risk, depending on how WS-Transfer
   operates over HTTP, that WS-Transfer might not benefit from existing
   deployed infrastructure such as proxies.

     [18] http://www.w3.org/Submission/2006/04/Comment)

   ACTION stuart to make the above resolution visible on www-tag

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-190 - Make the above resolution [regarding
   the WS-transfer submission] visible on www-tag [on Stuart Williams -
   due 2008-11-13].

Issue tagSoupIntegration-54 (ISSUE-54)

   skw: How did the plenary sessions go? Any action items arise from
   the week?

   timbl: Some TAG members attended HTML WG. Less polarization now [it
   seems]. Face to face meetings are good.
   ... Important to keep up personal ties
   ... (about philosophy of browser quirks)
   ... Maybe TAG could write up this strategy

   <DanC> timbl: I learned there's a putative goal to get all the
   browsers to agree on the set of quirks to support and then _stop
   there_.

   noah: Unconvinced that stripping down the big spec to get the small
   (authoring) spec will get a good result
   ... But it sounds like there's intention to do it

   <DanC> a result of our modularization discussion is
   [19]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Oct/0127.htm
   l HTML5 Specification - List of sections and corresponding work
   estimates Ian Hickson (Monday, 27 October)

     [19] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Oct/0127.html

   <DanC> action-188?

   <trackbot> ACTION-188 -- Dan Connolly to investigate the
   URL/IRI/Larry Masinter possible resolution of the URL/HTML5 issue.
   -- due 2008-10-30 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [20]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/188

     [20] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/188

   <DanC> action-188: note 6. URL in
   [21]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Oct/0127.htm
   l

     [21] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Oct/0127.html

   <trackbot> ACTION-188 Investigate the URL/IRI/Larry Masinter
   possible resolution of the URL/HTML5 issue. notes added

   danc: hsivonen said: If you can't see it in a web browser it's not
   on the web ...

uriBasedPackageAccess-61

   danc: Maybe they only need identifiers that work only on the local
   machine?
   ... They need to be persistent (e.g. preferences for clock widget)
   ... install-time naming?
   ... concerns with http are in part security related

   danc would like to close ACTION-187

   <timbl> [22]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/61

     [22] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/61

   <DanC> (checking [23]http://esw.w3.org/topic/UriSchemes/jar ...)

     [23] http://esw.w3.org/topic/UriSchemes/jar

   timbl: (another example) Resource-within-jar-file URIs?

   <timbl> I think the delimiter was /!/ or something

   <DanC> (wild...
   [24]http://java.sun.com/developer/onlineTraining/protocolhandlers/
   discusses cvs: and win32-registry: )

     [24] http://java.sun.com/developer/onlineTraining/protocolhandlers/

   timbl: Consider making ! a special separator in URIs?
   ... inspired by the jar example.

   <Stuart> Tim... some jar:...!... stuff at:
   [25]http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/net/JarURLConnection.
   html

     [25] http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/net/JarURLConnection.html

   <Stuart> The syntax of a JAR URL is:

   <Stuart> jar:<url>!/{entry}

Dec F2F - Call for Agenda Items

   <noah> I'd like to have Henry's thoughts on good use of F2F time. I
   think he has a number of TAG-related things going, and also with
   long distance travel has good reason to set the bar high.

   noah: Somewhat optimistic about making a new self-describing web
   draft

   ashok: Would like to spend significant time on access to metadata

   skw: Sure, but only if there's advance activity in this area

   adjourned.

Summary of Action Items

   [End of minutes]
Received on Wednesday, 12 November 2008 12:20:49 GMT

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