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minutes TAG Weekly 19 Jun for review

From: Dan Connolly <connolly@w3.org>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 10:37:10 -0500
To: www-tag <www-tag@w3.org>
Message-Id: <1214321830.11021.202.camel@pav.lan>

sorry for the delay...

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/06/19-tagmem-minutes



                              TAG Weekly

19 Jun 2008

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Jun/thread.html

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-tagmem-irc

Attendees

   Present
          Raman, jar, Stuart, Ht, Ashok_Malhotra, Norm, DanC, TimBL

   Regrets
          Noah, DO

   Chair
          Stuart Williams

   Scribe
          Dan Connolly

Contents

     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]Convene
         2. [6]News and New Items: widget: URI scheme
         3. [7]scalabilityOfURIAccess-58
         4. [8]tagSoupIntegration-54
         5. [9]XMLVersioning-41
         6. [10]public suffix list
     * [11]Summary of Action Items
     _________________________________________________________

Convene

   <Stuart> scribe: Dan Connolly

   agenda review... TVR asks that we make sure to give tagSoup
   considerable time

   <DanC_> [12]12 Jun minutes

     [12] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/12-tagmem-minutes

   RESOLUTION: to approve 12 Jun minutes

   SKW: propose to meet 26 Jun as usual... nominate DO to scribe, but
   can't confirm, so NDW?

   RESOLUTION: to meet again 26 Jun, NDW to scribe

   AM: meeting 3 July?

   SKW: haven't looked forward that far; might meet with XRI TC then

News and New Items: widget: URI scheme

   SKW: I note www-tag discussion of widget: URI scheme

   NDW: I'm interested in a suggestion from LMM about addressing into
   zips/packages

   <Stuart> From:
   [13]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Jun/0090

     [13] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Jun/0090

   <Stuart> Regardless, we need the TAG's support resolving this

   <Stuart> issue sooner than later.

   [missed some...]

   some discussion of itunes:

   and ado:

   <timbl> daap: ?

   TVR: one end-to-end architecture is: (1) start with HTTP, (2) get a
   media type, (3) get a namespace. But due to software bugs, sometimes
   a URI scheme is easier to deploy

   <timbl> I am interested in us getting involved

   <timbl> :)

   <DanC_> (is that WG chartered to do a new URI scheme?)

   several show interest in getting involved

   SKW: ok, I'll let them know we're interested to get involved

   <scribe> ACTION: stuart respond to Marcus re widget: URI scheme
   recorded in [14]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-tagmem-irc]

     [14] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-tagmem-irc

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-162 - Respond to Marcus re widget: URI
   scheme [on Stuart Williams - due 2008-06-26].

scalabilityOfURIAccess-58

   <Stuart>
   [15]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Jun/0126.htm
   l

     [15] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Jun/0126.html

   TimBL: question is, if the W3C systems team says "for the good
   running of the web, please install these catalogs"... is that good?
   ... I'm concerned that some catalog systems use public identifiers
   rather than URIs

   <Zakim> Norm, you wanted to say that supporting XML Catalogs ought
   to be sufficient

   NDW: XML catalogs seems sufficient; SGML catalogs would be
   overkill...
   ... and while XML catalogs allow public identifiers, it seems
   reasonable to stick to URIs

   <raman> as google's AC rep, I'd like the W3C to do something here
   because we and many large companies get periodically locked out of
   the W3C site because some piece of test code inadvertantly hammers
   the W3C site in the process of implementing a spec

   <Zakim> ht, you wanted to ask what the point I'm missing is

   <timbl> The namespace name defined by this Standard is
   "urn:oasis:names:tc:entity:xmlns:xml:catalog".

   DanC: in the past, the cache key for catalogs wasn't a URI; but
   catalogs now have URI support; any cache mechanism that uses URIs as
   the cache key is OK by me

   ht: what am I missing? what good is a catalog without...

   DanC: the catalog comes along with the cache hit data

   <Zakim> Norm, you wanted to suggest that Ted should build a sample
   catalog as he might distribute and to volunteer to review it.

   <timbl> I think he should build THE calalog

   <Norm> ACTION: Norman to coordinate with Ted to build a sample
   catalog recorded in [16]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-tagmem-irc]

     [16] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-tagmem-irc

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-163 - Coordinate with Ted to build a
   sample catalog [on Norman Walsh - due 2008-06-26].

   <Zakim> timbl, you wanted to express concern about the use of ur:
   all over the spec

   <timbl> <catalog xmlns="urn:oasis:names:tc:entity:xmlns:xml:catalog"

   NDW: yes, the catalog spec pre-dates my change in opinion from urns
   to http URIs for xml namespaces

   <Norm> Norm changed his mind,
   [17]http://norman.walsh.name/2004/03/03/266NorthPleasant

     [17] http://norman.walsh.name/2004/03/03/266NorthPleasant

   HT: bummer, that it starts urn: but the software we're interested to
   exploit knows that namespace name

   <timbl> Maybe we should serve
   [18]http://legacy.w3.org/urn/oasis:names:tc:entity:xmlns:xml:catalog

     [18] http://legacy.w3.org/urn/oasis:names:tc:entity:xmlns:xml:catalog

tagSoupIntegration-54

   SKW invites TVR to summarize last week's discussion
   [19]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/12-tagmem-minutes#item06

     [19] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/12-tagmem-minutes#item06

   TVR: a provocative question, following ht's attempt to get
   namespaces into HTML design: does it make sense to work toward
   convergence of XML and HTML? [tvr quickly gives lots of context at a
   rate the scribe fails to match]
   ... [explains 2 extreme positions and some middle ground; scribe
   would like help recovering them]

   TimBL: thanks for the summary... reminds me of discussion about
   RDFa; the spec sticks to XHTML, but a lot of the practical
   deployment looks like it's in HTML. [?]
   ... likewise, I'd expect that if good tags are added to HTML, they'd
   get adopted in XHTML
   ... there's an issue in that in HTML, there just aren't any
   namespaces. But you can get around that by saying the root HTML
   namespace is implicit, based on the media type

   <Stuart> action-145?

   <trackbot> ACTION-145 -- Tim Berners-Lee to add public prose around
   his slides at the AC meeting to make the case for extensiblity and
   flexible XML -- due 2008-06-26 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [20]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/145

     [20] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/145

   TimBL: some people are going to need some things from HTML and some
   things from XML, and keeping those separate isn't going to help
   ... pls continue that action; I do hope to get to it

   TVR: I agree RDFa is an example of something with bottom-up
   motivation that works pretty well, techinically; but attempts to
   integrated it into HTML 5 don't seem to be received well
   ... [more interesting stuff that consumes too much of the scribe's
   brain for him to summarize in real time]

   <Stuart> Raman pose two questions to encourage convergence: what
   changes to namespaces could be accomodated; likewise for XML. In
   each case also consider who benefits from what changes (IIRC)

   <Zakim> Norm, you wanted to waffle in the same general space as TVR

   [scribe missed some from TVR and TimBL]

   NDW: I've been thinking/writing about the situation with HTML and
   XML; I can see technical rationale for convergence, but I don't see
   that the respective communities have sufficient motivation

   TVR: I think this fork in the web is a really bad thing... one
   possibility is that the two languages come together such that when
   you're writing, you don't think of two languages but just one
   ... but there's also... let's call it the cohabitation question
   ... since we haven't asked the co-habitation question, things from
   one language tend to pollute the other, usually to the detriment of
   the XML side

   <ht> The cohabitation question is precisely the question we started
   this issue with: "Is the indefinite persistence of 'tag soup' HTML
   consistent with a sound architecture for the Web?"

   TVR: so I think it will help to think about how these two things can
   sit side by side on the web
   ... much/most Atom/RSS feeds aren't valid

   <ht> I just tried two random atom feeds, the first was well-formed,
   the second had an un-escaped & . . . :-(

   <Norm> :-(

   <ht> +10 to DC about innovators: I just spent the morning with a
   startup who just got 2nd round funding who have a very cool, with
   customers, xhtml+css+xml schema web site management tool

   <Zakim> Stuart, you wanted to mutter about open/closed language
   syntax and extensibility v interoperability

   <ht> We'll trade you namespaces lite for document.write :-)

   <timbl> I understand that the XML whitespace parsing rules are an
   external parameter given to the parser., an not available anywhere
   in a follow your nose way. This seems to be a big XML bug. It seems
   o me to be that the HTML pasring rules are in a similar place.

   <Zakim> timbl, you wanted to talk about the white space xml mparser
   flag having 3 values

   discussion of design constraints on RDFa which may be due to
   problems in other specs or bugs in software...

   in particular, whether whitespace is preserved in XSLT, and getting
   at namespace info in XSLT

   <Zakim> raman, you wanted to point out xhtml + css is a hands-down
   winner with authors and to add html tag soup is pushed by the
   browsers who have the implementations

   <Stuart> ack raman:

   <Zakim> raman:, you wanted to add that document.write is the actual
   dividing issue -- not surface syntax

   TVR: also, much of the tag soup started as clean XML in the author's
   hand, but then downstream tools emit tag soup
   ... various syntax fix-ups are manageable, but document.write is
   fundamentally different.
   ... document.write tangles things up... that's why HTML 5 is so
   contorted

   <Norm> It seems to me that AJAX replaces the need for it, but...

   NDW: document.write is too far deployed to say "don't do that"?

   HT: it's in google ads and such

   DanC: TV gave me some hope that's not permanent, that it's
   manageable over years

   TVR: yes... much of the stuff that was necessary for interop in the
   2001-2003 timeframe isn't necessary in current browsers, but there's
   a feedback loop that is hard to break

   ACTION-7?

   <trackbot> ACTION-7 -- Dan Connolly to work with Olivier and Tim to
   draft a position regarding extensibility of HTML and the role of the
   validator for consideration by the TAG -- due 2008-05-15 --
   PENDINGREVIEW

   <trackbot> [21]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/7

     [21] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/7

   <Stuart> Does anyone have an architecture for an extensible
   validator?

   yes, they announced a "unicorn" design

   action-7?

   <trackbot> ACTION-7 -- Tim Berners-Lee to draft a position regarding
   extensibility of HTML and the role of the validator for
   consideration by the TAG -- due 2008-06-26 -- PENDINGREVIEW

   <trackbot> [22]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/7

     [22] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/7

   action-7?

   <trackbot> ACTION-7 -- Tim Berners-Lee to draft a position regarding
   extensibility of HTML and the role of the validator for
   consideration by the TAG -- due 2008-07-31 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [23]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/7

     [23] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/7

XMLVersioning-41

   Alternative language versioning formalism Jonathan Rees (Tuesday, 27
   May)

   [24]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008May/0155.html

     [24] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008May/0155.html

   Def. L is extensible if there is an L' that extends it.

   action-149?

   <trackbot> ACTION-149 -- Henry S. Thompson to henry to help Jonathan
   with ACTION-148 and ACTION-158 -- due 2008-05-26 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [25]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/149

     [25] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/149

   action-158?

   <trackbot> ACTION-158 -- Jonathan Rees to write up thoughts on
   versioning and share with the group -- due 2008-05-28 --
   PENDINGREVIEW

   <trackbot> [26]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/158

     [26] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/158

   close action-158

   <trackbot> ACTION-158 Write up thoughts on versioning and share with
   the group closed

   close action-149

   <trackbot> ACTION-149 Henry to help Jonathan with ACTION-148 and
   ACTION-158 closed

   action-148?

   <trackbot> ACTION-148 -- Jonathan Rees to see if he can develop a
   formal basis for the definition of extensibility, possibly
   includiing definitions of forwards/backwards compatibility -- due
   2008-05-26 -- CLOSED

   <trackbot> [27]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/148

     [27] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/148

   action-158?

   <trackbot> ACTION-158 -- Jonathan Rees to write up thoughts on
   versioning and share with the group -- due 2008-05-28 -- CLOSED

   <trackbot> [28]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/158

     [28] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/158

   action-158?

   <trackbot> ACTION-158 -- Jonathan Rees to write up thoughts on
   versioning and share with the group -- due 2008-05-28 --
   PENDINGREVIEW

   <trackbot> [29]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/158

     [29] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/158

   SKW: I hope to pick this up again when DO is around

public suffix list

   [30]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Jun/0095.html

     [30] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Jun/0095.html

   public suffix list: when opacity meets security [metaDataInURI-31
   siteData-36]

   the list:
   [31]http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/netwerk/dns/src/ef
   fective_tld_names.dat?raw=1

     [31] http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/netwerk/dns/src/effective_tld_names.dat?raw=1

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Norman to coordinate with Ted to build a sample
   catalog recorded in [32]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-tagmem-irc]
   [NEW] ACTION: stuart respond to Marcus re widget: URI scheme
   recorded in [33]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-tagmem-irc]

     [32] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-tagmem-irc
     [33] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-tagmem-irc

   [End of minutes]
     _________________________________________________________


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-- 
Dan Connolly, W3C http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/
gpg D3C2 887B 0F92 6005 C541  0875 0F91 96DE 6E52 C29E
Received on Tuesday, 24 June 2008 15:36:14 GMT

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