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minutes TAG 26th March 2007: URNsAndRegistry-50, TagSoupIntegration-54 and IRIEveryWhere-27

From: Dan Connolly <connolly@w3.org>
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 08:02:22 -0500
To: www-tag@w3.org
Message-Id: <1175259742.5321.706.camel@dirk>

Oops; I forgot to send these out earlier this week...

Hypertext: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/03/26-minutes

Plain text:

                   TAG Weekly Telcon 26th March 2007

26 Mar 2007

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/03/26-agenda

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2007/03/26-tagmem-irc

Attendees

   Present
          Stuart, Ht, Raman, Norm, Rhys, DanC, TimBL, noah, DOrchard

   Regrets

   Chair
          Stuart

   Scribe
          DanC

Contents

     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]Administrative
         2. [6]CURIEs follow up from last week
         3. [7]# Issue URNsAndRegistry-50
         4. [8]Issue TagSoupIntegration-54
         5. [9]Issue IRIEveryWhere-27
         6. [10]httpRange-14 editing mechanics
         7. [11]IETF liaison something
         8. [12]Internet properties
     * [13]Summary of Action Items
     _________________________________________________________

   <scribe> Agenda:
   [14]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Mar/0025.html

     [14] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Mar/0025.html

Administrative

   <Stuart> scribenick: DanC

   RESOLUTION: to approve
   [15]http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-tagmem-minutes

     [15] http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-tagmem-minutes

   RESOLUTION: to approve
   [16]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/03/06-minutes ,
   [17]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/03/07-morning-minutes ,
   [18]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/03/07-afternoon-minutes

     [16] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/03/06-minutes
     [17] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/03/07-morning-minutes
     [18] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/03/07-afternoon-minutes

   <timbl> Ac meeting ....

   <timbl> ... Internet properties?

   PROPOSED: to meet again Mon, 2 Apr

   RESOLUTION: to meet again Mon, 2 Apr, TVR to scribe

   SKW: note focus next week is XMLVersioning-41 , then
   passwordsInTheClear-52 16 Apr

CURIEs follow up from last week

   <scribe> ACTION: HST to circulate a candidate description to
   tag@w3.org [to frame a distinct topic/issue on CURIE] [CONTINUES]
   recorded in [19]http://www.w3.org/2007/03/26-tagmem-irc]

     [19] http://www.w3.org/2007/03/26-tagmem-irc

   HT: by way of progress, I have been in communication with the editor
   [of the curie spec]

   DanC: I prefer www-tag

   ht: that might slow me down a bit, but ok

# Issue URNsAndRegistry-50

   HT: two things about this document get me stuck:

   <ht> [20]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/URNsAndRegistries-50

     [20] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/URNsAndRegistries-50

   HT: (1) the parts don't fit together well... the part I wrote and
   the part Dave wrote
   ... (2) reasons people do these myIRI things [?]
   ... I'm getting conflicting feedback: (a) there are too many little
   details (b) it doesn't make the opposition's case credible enough
   ... we might ask "who is this section for"? it has too much for the
   already-convinced, and not enough to convince others

   <dorchard> hello

   HT: So do we want a simple overview such as this [section 2]
   attempted to do? and then: are sections 3 to 5 enough to answer "so,
   OK, I'm convinced; what do I do?"

   SKW: I just read the document today, and I find section 2 pretty
   good, though I have a lot of detailed comments scribbled on it
   ... I wonder about persistence...

   <ht> [21]http://www.cdlib.org/inside/diglib/ark/arkspec.pdf

     [21] http://www.cdlib.org/inside/diglib/ark/arkspec.pdf

   SKW: do people seek a persistent binding between a URI and a
   particular representation? or between a URI and a resource?

   <Norm> brb

   HT: coming back to this document, I'm a bit more comfortable with
   it; I find the ARK paper really helpful, but it's [N] pages of dense
   PDF, so we shouldn't be surprised that the few pages of HTML we've
   done don't cover everything

   <Zakim> noah, you wanted to ask are we closer to the start or the
   end on this one?

   HT: perhaps citing the ark paper to provide a detailed case study
   will do it

   NM: I have some detailed comments, but I wonder... is this document
   working at a big-picture level? does it facilitate dialog with
   people exploring this issue?

   HT: I have been re-energised to work on this doc., and provided the
   group is happy with the overall thrust, then I'm ready to accept
   detailed input

   <noah> Recently, however, a number of proposals have emerged to
   create new identification mechanisms for the Web. They propose new
   URN (sub-)namespaces or URI schemes and provide registries for
   instances thereof, in order to allow them to be used to identify and
   retrieve information resources. This would appear to be incompatible
   with [AWWW]'s simple positive recommendations. In this finding we
   enumerate the arguments given in favor of these new proposals, which
   ofte

   <noah> point the way constructively to alternative designs which do
   in fact make use of http: URIs.

   <timbl> sentence ike [mised]

   <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to say that the big picture should be
   evident in boxes etc, and to suggest a round-the-table straw-poll

   DanC: I'm pretty thumbs-up; time to start polishing

   NM: I'm in the middle; I'd like to validate it with more
   interactions a la the HCLSIG

   +1 gather experimental evidence

   NDW: I'm inclined to do a detailed review.
   ... I mostly like it, as I recall

   (Rhys, when did you read it? I'm curious)

   Rhys: I mostly like it; I look forward to another draft

   <Rhys> on a flight to new york last week

   SKW: I remain to be convinced on some points. [missed some?]

   <ht> Note that this draft is 8 months old at this time. . .

   TimBL: I hope we're close to finished. I don't expect hard-core
   developers of naming schemes to be convinced by one document, or
   even one conference etc.

   <Zakim> timbl, you wanted to answr Staurt's question and to say that
   basically this persistence is the msapping from the idntifier to the
   abstract resource, where what you get back

   TimBL: re persistence, I think the point here is the binding between
   a URI and a conceptual thing; the relationship to the
   representation(s) is separate; see the generic resources finding

   SKW: the question is whether that's what others mean by
   "persistence"

   ht: I intend to elaborate on persistence of representations as
   opposed to identifier/identified

   <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to point out interested parties

   DanC: another interesting audience is people who aren't advocates of
   myIRIs, but have been asked to endorse myIRIs and are looking for a
   big picture

   <timbl> Well, The LSID people did get, and may still be, very bogged
   down over the distinction between persistence of the URI->thing
   maping and the th persistence of a bit string returned.

   DaveO: yes, I have had some comments/discussion with people in that
   position

   <scribe> ACTION: SKW to send comments on urnsAndRegistries draft
   recorded in [22]http://www.w3.org/2007/03/26-tagmem-irc]

     [22] http://www.w3.org/2007/03/26-tagmem-irc

   NM: [not sure how to summarize]

Issue TagSoupIntegration-54

   <Stuart> [23]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/tag-soup-integration

     [23] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/tag-soup-integration

   TVR: yes, I sent a draft... handed to Dan

   ->
   [24]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007JanMar/0402.
   html Doctypes and the dialects of HTML 5 Daniel Schattenkirchner
   (Friday, 23 March)

     [24] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007JanMar/0402.html

   DanC: there's a thread in the HTML WG, though I haven't read it; it
   seems to be relevant

   <timbl>
   [25]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007JanMar/threa
   d.html#msg402

     [25] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007JanMar/thread.html#msg402

   TVR: rather than write this whole thing, I'm inclined to listen to
   community discussion and summarie in this document

   TimBL: I'm interested to enumerate forms of deviation from XHTML in
   HTML documents.
   ... I'd rather say "missing / in img element", to phrase it in terms
   of XHTMl

   TVR: I'm not sure that approach is responsive to where the community
   is just now

   DanC: cases that both HTML and XML communities care about: (a)
   logout markup (b) contact and calendar info ... [a few others; darn;
   they already leaked out]

   NM: the biggest point is centralized vs decentralized extensibility.

   <Zakim> noah, you wanted to ask how we generate real value from the
   XML story

   DanC: is there anything architecural about forms? there's a big
   organizational question about forms; does the TAG want to be part of
   that organizational equasion?

   TVR, NM, Rhys: sorta.

   SKW: next steps?

   DanC: pause until HTML WG has a ftf meeting, or issues a WD, or
   something

   TVR: yes, let's wait a bit

Issue IRIEveryWhere-27

   DanC: I'm not ready to close the IRIEveryWhere-27 issue; I'd like to
   study the axioms more. Plus, I gather there's XMl Core work on "XML
   Resource Identifiers" that we should consider before closing this
   issue

   NDW: in particular, spaces are allowed in href="" attributes, but
   not in IRIs.
   ... the spec for this has lived in the XLink spec; we were going to
   factor it out a while ago, but we didn't; now we need to for [xml
   base?]
   ... XML Core is aiming for an RFC on XML Resources Indentifiers

   <timbl> %25

   <Norm> ty

   <ht> (XRI)rock on => (IRI)rock%20on ==> (URI)rock%20on

   <Stuart> wrt [26]http://www.w3.org/2003/04/iri.html

     [26] http://www.w3.org/2003/04/iri.html

   -> [27]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Feb/0008
   IRIEverywhere-27 addressed by XQuery and other recent W3C
   Recommendations?

     [27] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Feb/0008

   <scribe> ACTION: DanC to ask TimBL whether XQuery and XML Namespaces
   1.1 address IRIEverywhere to his satisfaction, noting Mappings and
   identity in URIs and IRIs. [DONE] [recorded in
   [28]http://www.w3.org/2007/03/26-tagmem-irc]

     [28] http://www.w3.org/2007/03/26-tagmem-irc

   <scribe> ACTION: TimBL to clarify
   [29]http://www.w3.org/2003/04/iri.html , perhaps by using N3
   recorded in [30]http://www.w3.org/2007/03/26-tagmem-irc]

     [29] http://www.w3.org/2003/04/iri.html
     [30] http://www.w3.org/2007/03/26-tagmem-irc

   <ht> The IRI spec ([31]http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3987.txt)
   specifies the mapping in a very simple way

     [31] http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3987.txt)

   <ht> "The mapping is also an identity transformation for URIs

   <ht> and is idempotent;

   <ht> "

httpRange-14 editing mechanics

   Rhys: I've done seme writing; as I'm new, I'm interested in early
   feedback

   HT: I'm interested to take a look

IETF liaison something

   DanC summarizes recent IETF liaison discussion of link relationships
   in HTML and in Atom, which is related to our issue 51
   (standardizedFieldValues)

Internet properties

   TimBL: there has been quite a bit of discussion in the US about
   whether, once party A has paid an ISP to connect to the Internet,
   and party B has paid an ISP to connect to the Internet, A and B can
   then communicate, or whether they might have to do further
   negotiation or pay some other party
   ... MIT doesn't lobby the U.S. government, but laws aside, there are
   properties of the Internet that the Web relies on

   poll on whether to make this a tag issue and/or discuss at an
   upcoming W3C Advisory Committee meeting...

   -> [32]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Mar/0016.html
   properties of the Internet as foundation of the Web Tim Berners-Lee
   (Wednesday, 7 March)

     [32] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Mar/0016.html

   poll... 0, ~1, 1, 1, -1, ...

   <Zakim> timbl, you wanted to note that e.g. the N.A.T. box problem
   is anothr example of IP supply

   ADJOURN.

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: SKW to send comments on urnsAndRegistries draft
   recorded in [33]http://www.w3.org/2007/03/26-tagmem-irc]
   [NEW] ACTION: TimBL to clarify
   [34]http://www.w3.org/2003/04/iri.html , perhaps by using N3
   recorded in [35]http://www.w3.org/2007/03/26-tagmem-irc]

     [33] http://www.w3.org/2007/03/26-tagmem-irc
     [34] http://www.w3.org/2003/04/iri.html
     [35] http://www.w3.org/2007/03/26-tagmem-irc

   [PENDING] ACTION: HST to circulate a candidate description to
   tag@w3.org [to frame a distinct topic/issue on CURIE] [recorded in
   [36]http://www.w3.org/2007/03/26-tagmem-irc]

     [36] http://www.w3.org/2007/03/26-tagmem-irc

   [DONE] ACTION: DanC to ask TimBL whether XQuery and XML Namespaces
   1.1 address IRIEverywhere to his satisfaction, noting Mappings and
   identity in URIs and IRIs. [recorded in
   [37]http://www.w3.org/2007/03/26-tagmem-irc]

     [37] http://www.w3.org/2007/03/26-tagmem-irc

   [End of minutes]
     _________________________________________________________


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-- 
Dan Connolly, W3C http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/
D3C2 887B 0F92 6005 C541  0875 0F91 96DE 6E52 C29E
Received on Friday, 30 March 2007 13:02:39 UTC

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