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TAG Minutes 20 Aug 2007

From: Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 13:54:56 -0400
To: www-tag@w3.org
Message-ID: <m2r6lyozv3.fsf@nwalsh.com>
See http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/08/20-minutes

   W3C[1]

                                   - DRAFT -

                                      TAG
                                  20 Aug 2007

   Agenda[2]

   See also: IRC log[3]

Attendees

   Present
           Norm, Raman, Rhys, Stuart, Henry, Dave, Dan

   Regrets
           TimBL, Noah

   Chair
           Stuart

   Scribe
           Norm

Contents

     * Topics
         1. Agenda review
         2. Approve minutes of 13 Aug?
         3. Next telcon
         4. Re-scheduling Telcon
         5. TAG Blog
         6. September f2f preparation
         7. Issue XML Versioning 41
         8. Issue xml11Names-46
         9. tagSoupIntegration-54
        10. Fragment identifiers
     * Summary of Action Items

     ----------------------------------------------------------------------

  Agenda review

   <ht> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/08/20-agenda.html[4]

   Stuart: Some actions will be closed without discussion if no one asks to
   discuss them.

   Dan: I'd like to discuss some of them (scribe missed exactly which ones)

   Agenda accepted

  Approve minutes of 13 Aug?

   <ht> http://www.w3.org/2007/08/13-tagmem-minutes.html[5]

   Proposed: Accept http://www.w3.org/2007/08/13-tagmem-minutes.html[6] as a
   true record?

   Accepted.

   <DanC> sounds like we're approving the version of 2007/08/13 18:10:12
   without "DRAFT" at the top

  Next telcon

   Stuart: I propose 10 Sep 2007.
   ... 3 Sep is US Labor Day. 27 Aug is UK public holiday.

   Dave gives regrets for 10 Sep

   <Rhys> Rhys does give regrets for 27 August

   Stuart: Raman can you scribe 10 Sep?

   Raman: Yes.

   Accepted, next meeting is 10 Sep 2007.

  Re-scheduling Telcon

   Stuart: I put a wbs form up, several replied.
   ... Two slots work: this one and 12-1:30p ET Thursday

   Henry: That slot isn't available for TimBL.
   ... I think this slot has significantly impacted our productivity.
   ... I'd like to look a little harder.

   Raman: I'm willing to accept an 8:30PT slot, I'll just have to be a little
   late

   Henry: Tim would miss the team lunch, but Amy thought he would consider
   it.

   Norm: What are you proposing?

   Henry: I'm proposing 11:30a-1:00p ET on Tuesdays

   Norm: I'm afraid I have a conflict on Tuesday's now.

   <DanC> ok by me

   Norm: I can see about getting it moved.

   Henry: The only other slot that has any obvious hope is 1:00-2:30p ET on
   Thursdays.

   Stuart: Rhys has a "no" on that slot.

   Rhys: I could be persuaded to live with it.

   Henry: I propose we try for 11:30-1:00 ET on Tuesdays pending Norm moving
   his meeting his meeting and TimBL agreeing. Failing that we come back to
   consider 1:00-2:30 ET on Thursdays.

   Stuart: If we can shift to another day this week, I'd like to reclaim the
   next two weeks. Meeting, on Tuesday next, for example.

   DanC: Call both and then cancel one.

   Stuart: I propose that we next meet on Tuesday, 28 Aug 2007 at 11:30 ET.

   Stuart: And Thursday, 30 Aug 2007 at 1:00p ET.
   ... I'll cancel one or both depending on the survey outcome.

   Accepted.

  TAG Blog

   Stuart: DanC, did you get approval for the URI?

   DanC: I didn't really make any progress on either action.

   Stuart: Any idea when you might make progress?

   DanC: Its straightforward for me to get a response after 27 Aug.

   Stuart: Ok, we'll wait until its straightforward.

  September f2f preparation

   Stuart: I've put up a logistics page

   -> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-logistics

   Stuart: I've put out a call for agenda items, we could talk about that
   now.

   Dave: I'd like to see XML Versioning on the agenda.

   Stuart: You gave regrets.

   Dave: Yes, but I'm willing to call in; so maybe we could do it late in the
   day UK time.

   Stuart: I believe Rhys would like to talk about httpRange-14.
   ... Distributed extensibility, microformats, HTML 5 looks like a
   possibility

   <Stuart> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2007Aug/0038[8]

   Stuart: The other thing I think we said was that we'd discuss the
   confluence of Web 2.0/Web Architecture, but we don't really have material
   to discuss.

   DanC: We have the thread on fragment identifiers.

   Raman: I'm not going to try to call in, but I don't mind if you talk about
   it in my absence.

   Stuart: I'd like to see some email discussion to help shape the agenda.

   Some discussion of HTTP Redirection, etc.; Rhys is working on related
   materials.

   DanC: I'll try to prepare for the distributed versioning discussion.
   ... Where's Semantic Web Architecture?

   Norm: Stalled with TimBL and I. Probably not productive unless Tim and I
   can get together and write more words.

   Stuart: Does that look pretty good? Are there other things people would
   like to see?

   DanC: How far are we from our f2f?

   We're three calendar weeks away

   DanC: The agenda should be announced at T-minus two weeks.

   (Per W3C process)

   Dave: So can we talk more about the meeting?
   ... I brought up a topic, versioning, and we picked a time slot, but the
   obvious next thing is, what will we do about versioning?
   ... Seems to me that we should take another pass at the documents. That
   means reviewers.

   Stuart: I'm on the hook to review the terminology document.
   ... Do we have reviewers for any of the other documents.

   Norm: I'll review the XML part again if you point me to the most recent
   version.

   Stuart: So we still need a reviewer for the strategies document.

   Dave: Yes, 2.2.2 is where we kind of finished at the last f2f. I did a
   bunch of work on that, that would be one logical place to pick up from
   again.

  Issue XML Versioning 41

   <Stuart> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Jul/0041[9]

   Stuart: This is on the agenda to discuss Norm's action.

   <dorchard> The latest versions of versioning finding are listed in the
   email at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Jul/0004.html[10]

   Norm reviews his action, suggests that Dave plonk it in somewhere.

   Stuart: Is it likely that you can do that before the f2f, Dave?

   Dave: No.

   Norm: Doesn't worry me if we don't add that before September.

   <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to note @role module last call coming, and pick
   back up on modularity in CDF, XHTML modularization

   Dave: I plan no changes to the documents between now and the f2f.

   DanC: There's a @role spec coming

   <DanC> http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-xhtml-role-20061113/[11]

   DanC: Why DTDs?

   Raman: What's missing is an XML Schema that conforms to XHTML
   modularization.

   Henry: If we think that we should say somthing that would encourage them
   to not use DTDs; my candidate would be to use the modularization framework
   and an XHTML 1.1 XML Schema.

   Some discussion of the status of modularization; apparently it's back at
   WD.

   <DanC> last call
   http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-xhtml-modularization-20060705/[12]

   Stuart: Is this one we should be reviewing?

   DanC: Yes, in particular there's a form of extensibility that's sort of
   decentralized in a way that appeals to me.
   ... There are claims that the subsitution group model they use doesn't
   work, but I've never been able to get to the bottom of it.

   Dave: I wrote something on this too, we should really try to get to the
   bottom of it.

   <DanC> XHTML modularization and substitution groups (tag issue
   XMLVersioning-41, TagSoupIntegration-54, RDFinXHTML-35)[13]

   <ht> http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-xhtml-modularization-20060705/[14]

   <scribe> ACTION: ht to review XHTML Modularization
   (http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-xhtml-modularization-20060705/)[15]
   [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2007/08/20-tagmem-minutes.html#action02[16]]

   <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-15 - Review XHTML Modularization
   (http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-xhtml-modularization-20060705/)[17] [on
   Henry S Thompson - due 2007-08-27].

   Stuart: DanC, did you want to say more about the role document?

   DanC: Sort of. One of the ways that role winds up on my plate is due to
   accessible web applications.
   ... JavaScript is turing complete, so there are accessibility problems. So
   W3C did some work in this area.
   ... One outcome is this role attribute with things like checkbox that help
   screen readers do better.
   ... It's been proposed that this role module be stuck in HTML 5. And HTML
   5 has completely sworn off DTDs.
   ... If you're not going to do a DTD for it, what are you going to do?

   Raman: One issue is, does this go in a new attribute? Why not stick it in
   class.
   ... The other issue is whether or not it should be namespaced as it is in
   XHTML 1.1. But firefox doesn't care because it's been hardwired.
   ... Saying that role has to be in a namespace is bogus.
   ... I started some of the role work; it's been carefully done as a module
   so that the WAI folks could decide what the right-hand-sides should be.
   ... They actually created two attributes in two namespaces, the state
   values go in one and the role values go in the other.
   ... That's a three line summary of all the HTML 5 mail.

   DanC: One of the design patterns for HTML 5 is "no no no, not namespaces,
   let's figure out what the authors need and give them a list"

   Raman: The problem with role is that it's cross-cutting so that doesn't
   really work.
   ... HTML 5 also talks about following existing practice, so they're trying
   to go in two different directions.

   Stuart: We're talking about this under versioning-41. Is this really
   versioning, or is ti an HTML 5 topic?

   DanC: The versioning topic is about substitution groups in modular design.

   Dave: If substitution groups don't work in 1.0, do they also not work in
   1.1?

   DanC: XML Schemas is about to go to last call.

   Henry: There is one change in 1.1, allowing multiple substitution heads.
   That's been alleged to be problem. I'll be taking a look.

   Stuart: Do we agree that Norm's action is closed?

   Yes.

   <scribe> ACTION: dorchard to incorporate the NVDL text into the findings.
   [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2007/08/20-tagmem-minutes.html#action04[18]]

   <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-16 - Incorporate the NVDL text into the
   findings. [on David Orchard - due 2007-08-27].

   <Stuart> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/[19]

   <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/users[20]

   <raman> For the record the collection of properties refered to as state is
   a collection of attributes -- not a single one.

   <DanC> ah, right, raman

  Issue xml11Names-46

   <Stuart> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Jul/0040[21]

   Norm: I completed the action I was given ages ago.

   DanC: I think it needs to be in a test suite somewhere.

   Norm: An XML 1.1 parser should accept the document, an XML 1.0 one would
   fail.

   Henry: There are already tests in the XML test suite for 1.1 features.

   <DanC> (yup, norm's action is done to my satisfaction)

   <ht> http://www.w3.org/XML/Test/[22]

   DanC: We could just turn this whole ball of wax over to the XML CG.

   <DanC> (I'd like ht to take an action)

   Stuart: We'll mark that action as done and leave the issue pending.

   <scribe> ACTION: ht to check that the XML test suite contains an
   equivalent test [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2007/08/20-tagmem-minutes.html#action05[23]]

   <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-17 - Check that the XML test suite contains
   an equivalent test [on Henry S Thompson - due 2007-08-27].

  tagSoupIntegration-54

   Stuart: Any discussion?

   <dorchard> which article?

   DanC: What's novel about Sam's message is that he proposes using
   namespaces in content that isn't well-formed XML.

   Raman: I think he's articulated something important: it's more than the
   browser vendors who have a right to decide what goes into HTML 5. User
   communities should be able to add new elements too.
   ... The browser vendors are going to document what they do, but I think it
   would be a serious loss to the web if that's all we expected to happen.
   ... I think the important thing is that extensibility is the purview of
   more than the browser vendors. Henry saw something else when he looked at
   it.

   dorchard: If this is something that would help the HTML 5 WG get closer to
   what the TAG thinks is the right way to deal with distributed
   extensibility, then we should support it.

   Stuart: Is there a proposal here?

   dorchard: We could ask someone to write up a message of support that we
   could publish as the TAG

   <scribe> ACTION: dorchard to review the article and make a proposal.
   [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2007/08/20-tagmem-minutes.html#action06[24]]

   Stuart: Any other discussion?

   DanC: The agenda suggests continuing Ramans action without comment. I'm
   content that he finished that action.

   Stuart: I can't point to that document off the top of my head. It goes
   back to our Google meeting.

   <raman> http://www.w3.org/t2001/tag/doc/tag-soup-integration.html[25]

   <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/tag-soup-integration.html[26]

   Stuart: OK, with that pointer we'll call the action closed.

   DanC: Are we going to maintain this?

   Raman: If you send that document to the HTML 5 WG mailing list, I don't
   think we'll get anything productive back.

   dorchard: We need to do our job anyway

   Stuart: Do you think it's ready to be sent?

   Raman: Yes, if we agree that those are the things we want to say. I just
   don't think there's value in doing a lot more work in a vacuum.

   Some discussion of what actions we could take

   Raman: What we've prepared is an outline of items we believe should be
   covered

   Stuart: We should formulate our opinion regardless of what the outcome
   might be

   Raman: I think we should flesh this out at the f2f and then send it.

   <scribe> ACTION: Raman to update the document with the latest discussion
   [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2007/08/20-tagmem-minutes.html#action07[27]]

   <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-19 - Update the document with the latest
   discussion [on T.V. Raman - due 2007-08-27].

   <scribe> ACTION: Stuart to discuss with DanC what might be most useful and
   productive wrt providing input to the HTML WG [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2007/08/20-tagmem-minutes.html#action08[28]]

   <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-20 - Discuss with DanC what might be most
   useful and productive wrt providing input to the HTML WG [on Stuart
   Williams - due 2007-08-27].

   Henry: We should separate our technical discussions from strategically how
   to communicate this with the WG

  Fragment identifiers

   -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Jul/0148

   Raman: The more general TAG discussion I think is that there's an
   asymmetry between URLs on the server and URLs on the client.
   ... On the server, everything after the question mark is sent to the
   resource as a bunch of arguments.
   ... Similarly, in the URL you have the # which passes everything after the
   hash to the client to handle it.
   ... The community knows how HTML browsers use fragment identifiers; and we
   know how RDF does it; but there's very little else been said.
   ... The problem with saying "the client" is the question of which client.
   ... At this point, I think there are more details that need to be written
   down if we expect to get interoperability.

   Stuart: One of the things that interested me is that no where in that
   discussion did we talk about the media type.

   Raman: I danced around that carefully. That only really comes up with
   respect to HTML. It came up years ago when I was at Adobe with respect to
   opening up PDF.
   ... I don't remember the status of that for the media type application for
   PDF
   ... If you write .../?a=1, you'll never expect that to work if you send it
   to a different server. On the other hand, if it's # then you would expect
   different clients to act in the same way.

   <Zakim> ht, you wanted to ask for clarification

   Henry: When you said "which client" you didn't mean that in any given
   interaction there is more than one client, right?

   Raman: Right. Clearly the CNN URL works in a JavaScript enabled browser,
   but not in one that isn't.
   ... You could say that text/html includes all of the processing
   expectations of JavaScript. That's one reasonable answer.

   Henry: It's certainly the case that there are other media types that
   specify the interpretation of fragment identifiers.
   ... They are careful and they get real value out of them.

   Raman: I think Adobe did that, but I don't clearly recall at this time.

   Henry: It would be perfectly coherent for someone to define a media type
   that said what you do with fragids that begin with slash is that you issue
   an XMLHTTPRequest of the following form...
   ... But that's not what either text/html or any of the other HTML mime
   types say. So CNN is flat out in violation of the spec.
   ... JavaScript that does that is breaking the rules.
   ... I don't think that anyone has to do anything to make that clear. It's
   perfectly clear. Someone has written JavaScript code that's doing an end
   run around the browser.

   Raman: I'm comfortable with that view too, but then you run into the
   counter-argument that "it works dummy".

   Henry: Breaking the rules is bad? I don't want to write a TAG finding that
   says that.

   Raman: It seems to be all about breaking the rules and making a hack that
   works these days and I"m a little worried about that.
   ... There are two reasonable positions: the MIME type says what the answer
   is.
   ... The other position is that the MIME type is for static documents and
   in this dynamic world, the JavaScript gets to say what the answer is.
   ... We can either say you broke the rules or we can change the rules. It
   actually took me a while to figure how it works.
   ... This is a lot like the "CSS sprite" hack.

   Stuart: We're about out of time. I think we'll come back to this.

   Henry: If there's a TAG issue here, it's something about what proper
   script author responsibilities are in the context of the standards that
   they're operating with.
   ... It isn't obvious where you would go to find a basis for saying "gee,
   this doesn't constitute good citizenship"

   Stuart: Adjourned.

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: dorchard to incorporate the NVDL text into the findings.
   [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2007/08/20-tagmem-minutes.html#action04[30]]
   [NEW] ACTION: dorchard to review the article and make a proposal.
   [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2007/08/20-tagmem-minutes.html#action06[31]]
   [NEW] ACTION: ht to check that the XML test suite contains an equivalent
   test [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2007/08/20-tagmem-minutes.html#action05[32]]
   [NEW] ACTION: ht to review XHTML Modularization
   (http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-xhtml-modularization-20060705/[33])
   [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2007/08/20-tagmem-minutes.html#action02[34]]
   [NEW] ACTION: Raman to update the document with the latest discussion
   [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2007/08/20-tagmem-minutes.html#action07[35]]
   [NEW] ACTION: Stuart to discuss with DanC what might be most useful and
   productive wrt providing input to the HTML WG [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2007/08/20-tagmem-minutes.html#action08[36]]
    
   [End of minutes]

     ----------------------------------------------------------------------

   [1] http://www.w3.org/
   [2] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/tag-weekly
   [3] http://www.w3.org/2007/08/20-tagmem-irc
   [4] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/08/20-agenda.html
   [5] http://www.w3.org/2007/08/13-tagmem-minutes.html
   [6] http://www.w3.org/2007/08/13-tagmem-minutes.html
   [8] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2007Aug/0038
   [9] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Jul/0041
   [10] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Jul/0004.html
   [11] http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-xhtml-role-20061113/
   [12] http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-xhtml-modularization-20060705/
   [13] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-versioning/2007Feb/0000.html
   [14] http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-xhtml-modularization-20060705/
   [15] http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-xhtml-modularization-20060705/)
   [16] http://www.w3.org/2007/08/20-tagmem-minutes.html#action02
   [17] http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-xhtml-modularization-20060705/)
   [18] http://www.w3.org/2007/08/20-tagmem-minutes.html#action04
   [19] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/
   [20] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/users
   [21] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Jul/0040
   [22] http://www.w3.org/XML/Test/
   [23] http://www.w3.org/2007/08/20-tagmem-minutes.html#action05
   [24] http://www.w3.org/2007/08/20-tagmem-minutes.html#action06
   [25] http://www.w3.org/t2001/tag/doc/tag-soup-integration.html
   [26] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/tag-soup-integration.html
   [27] http://www.w3.org/2007/08/20-tagmem-minutes.html#action07
   [28] http://www.w3.org/2007/08/20-tagmem-minutes.html#action08
   [30] http://www.w3.org/2007/08/20-tagmem-minutes.html#action04
   [31] http://www.w3.org/2007/08/20-tagmem-minutes.html#action06
   [32] http://www.w3.org/2007/08/20-tagmem-minutes.html#action05
   [33] http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-xhtml-modularization-20060705/
   [34] http://www.w3.org/2007/08/20-tagmem-minutes.html#action02
   [35] http://www.w3.org/2007/08/20-tagmem-minutes.html#action07
   [36] http://www.w3.org/2007/08/20-tagmem-minutes.html#action08
   [37] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
   [38] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

    Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl[37] version 1.128 (CVS
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    $Date: 2007/08/20 17:51:19 $

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