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Re: Draft minutes of 04 Oct 2005 TAG weekly telecon

From: <noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 11:26:29 -0400
To: "Roy T. Fielding" <fielding@gbiv.com>
Cc: W3C TAG <www-tag@w3.org>
Message-ID: <OF4C68DD9A.FDC7FA5A-ON85257091.0053E80F-85257091.0054D299@lotus.com>

Roy,

This mostly looks fine, but I'd like to suggest two corrections, one minor 
and one significant: 

Minor
-------

You scribed:

> NM: I also had an issue with the assumption of octet streams versus bit 
streams in media types

I think what I was saying was more along the lines of:

NM:  At a F2F in Boston at the airport Hyatt, I believe we had some 
discussion of the use of media types to type abstract bit streams, such as 
those that might have been encoded in an XML Infoset (e.g. in a DOM).

That's probably a bit of an elaboration of what I actually said, but I 
think it comes closer.  I don't believe I've ever had a concern centering 
on the differenct between octet streams and bit streams.

Significant
-----------

At the end of the schemeProtocols discussion I agreed to pull together a 
rework of the draft in time for consideration at the Dec. 2005 F2F (or 
else, I suppose, to report that I've decided that proceeding is a bad idea 
after all).  The group implicitly agreed to spend some time at the F2F 
reviewing such a draft and considering again whether we might in fact do 
something useful in a finding.  I think the minutes should reflect that 
plan.

Thank you.

--------------------------------------
Noah Mendelsohn 
IBM Corporation
One Rogers Street
Cambridge, MA 02142
1-617-693-4036
--------------------------------------







"Roy T. Fielding" <fielding@gbiv.com>
Sent by: www-tag-request@w3.org
10/04/2005 03:01 PM
 
        To:     W3C TAG <www-tag@w3.org>
        cc:     (bcc: Noah Mendelsohn/Cambridge/IBM)
        Subject:        Draft minutes of 04 Oct 2005 TAG weekly telecon



Draft minutes of today's TAG teleconference can be found at

    http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2005/10/04-minutes.html

and a text version is below.

Cheers,

Roy T. Fielding                            <http://roy.gbiv.com/>
Chief Scientist, Day Software              <http://www.day.com/>

====================

    W3C
                                    - DRAFT -
                            TAG weekly teleconference
4 Oct 2005

    Agenda:  <http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2005/10/04-agenda.html>
    IRC log: <http://www.w3.org/2005/10/04-tagmem-irc>

Attendees

    Present
            Norm_Walsh, Dan_Connolly, Vincent_Quint, Roy_Fielding,
            Noah_Mendelsohn, Dave_Orchard, Ed_Rice

    Regrets
            TimBL, Henry

    Chair
            Vincent Quint

    Scribe
            Roy Fielding

Contents

      * Topics
          1. Administrative
          2. Issue endPointRefs-47
          3. Issue mediaTypeManagement-45
          4. Issue xml11Names-46
          5. Issue schemeProtocols-49
          6. Issue URNsAndRegistries-50
          7. circles-and-arrows discussion of versioning at F2F
          8. Future F2F meetings
      * Summary of Action Items

 
----------------------------------------------------------------------

    <scribe> Scribe: Roy Fielding

    <scribe> ScribeNick: Roy

   Administrative

    VQ: Next week telecon is okay? [yes]
    ... scribe for next week?

    Ed: I'll scribe next week

    VQ: and the following week Henry is due to scribe

    DC: Please add discussion of F2F diagrams to the agenda

    VQ: Okay, added to end of agenda
    ... Have enough people read the minutes? [no]
    ... We will defer accepting until next week, so please read them

    <DanC> ACTION: DanC to link parts of ftf minutes to meeting page 
[recorded
    in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/04-tagmem-irc]

   Issue endPointRefs-47

    <DanC> endPointRefs-47 4 Oct 2005 from Dave O

    DO: I disagree with the TAG's rough consensus on 47

    <DanC> (so the decision didn't stick. oh well; nice try.)

    DO: reasons are that, 1) giving guidance to EPR minters that they 
should
    use the address field suffers from the problem that the W3C has not
    provided sufficient technology for them to do this, 2) [scribe 
missed],
    ... 3) stateful services is more than EPR, such as HTTP cookies as 
session
    ids, people use them in almost all significant server apps, and
    criticizing EPRs without acknowledging that people are creating 
stateful
    services seems wrong
    ... TAG could do nothing at all, say there is no issue, and ack that 
they
    are separate architectures not on the Web
    ... or TAG could work on stateful services as a separate architecture
    ... or TAG could work on creating a solution that places these 
services on
    the Web

    <DanC> (ah... we do seem to have a recorded action "David to write
    material on state in distributed application design [12 jul 05]")

    <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to note we don't seem to have an issue to 
collect
    the cookie/state discussions; perhaps we need one

    <noah> +1 to Dan's suggestion

    DC: I don't think you need to convince us ... our decision was 
contingent
    on consensus and you seem to disagree, so we should work on a 
solution

    DO: I worked on a SOAP to HTTP binding that made SOAP resource 
addressable
    as URIs, so we can work on educational material to improve this 
situation.
    Should we also press to create technology?

    <DanC> (remind me what technology we asked for? I thought we just 
asked
    for primer text)

    <Zakim> noah, you wanted to ask how fast we need to have feedback to 
wsa

    DO: we may have missed the train

    NM: the plan makes a lot of sense, but WSA folks are late in the 
process
    and if we are going to do this in a finding then we should do so 
before
    they have completed the process

    DO: They are already in CR, so it is perilously close to being too 
late
    already

    <DanC> (double-checking... yup... ws-addressing is at CR as of 17 
August
    2005)

    DO: we could ask for a binding of EPRs to URIs (?)

    DC: Have you sketched this out somewhere?

    DO: yes, I'll look for link

    <dorchard>
 
http://www.pacificspirit.com/blog/2005/03/01/ 
wsrest_continued_do_we_need_an_http_transfer_soap_binding_and_simplified 
_wsdl

    <DanC> (hmm... title doesn't connect to ws-a "WS-REST continued: do 
we
    need an HTTP Transfer SOAP binding and simplified WSDL?")

    <DanC> (ah... but ws-a is in the 1st screenfull)

    NM: maybe we could make a fast-track approach to figure out what we 
would
    like to happen and give a direction, so that we can then decide 
whether we
    need to coordinate with WSA progress

    <dorchard> noah?

    VQ: what can we do in the next few weeks? should we get back to this 
in
    the next telecon?

    DO: I could write up something elaborating the issue and potential
    solutions

    VQ: when?

    DO: by next telecon

    <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to float the idea of inviting the ws-a 
chair next
    week.

    <scribe> ACTION: DO to draft something indicating the issues with 
EPR and
    potential solutions [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2005/10/04-tagmem-irc]

    DO: am working on web services for versioning ... will shuffle that 
back
    on the pile if EPR is more time critical

    <DanC> David to write material on state in distributed application 
design
    [12 jul 05] [CONTINUES]

    <DanC> ACTION: David to write material on state in distributed 
application
    design [12 jul 05] [CONTINUES] [recorded in
    http://www.w3.org/2005/10/04-tagmem-irc]

    <Ed> Phone is dead.. retrying :(

   Issue mediaTypeManagement-45

    VQ: just an update

    http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html#mediaTypeManagement-45

    DC: this goes all the way back to original media type specs, how to
    version PostScript
    ... I think this is an issue for the CDF wg

    NM: I also had an issue with the assumption of octet streams versus 
bit
    streams in media types

    VQ: do you think it would be helpful to check with CDF WG where they 
are
    on this issue?

    DC: hold on.. looking

    <DanC> CDF issue 18

    <scribe> ACTION: VQ to check with CDF WG to see how they have solved 
issue
    and if they have more details [recorded in
    http://www.w3.org/2005/10/04-tagmem-irc]

    <DanC> hmm... they have another issue, "Identification, MIME type and
    Accept headers" that's still open.
    http://www.w3.org/2004/CDF/Group/track/issues/33

   Issue xml11Names-46

    http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html#xml11Names-46

    VQ: checking June 2004 minutes the TAG resolved to move issue to 
pending
    state
    ... is this something we need to record in issues list?

    DC: Norm handed the ball to XML CG

    <scribe> ACTION: Norm to check on current status of issue 
xml11Names-46
    with XML CG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/04-tagmem-irc]

    <Zakim> noah, you wanted to report on schema status

    NM: Schema WG is also looking at this
    ... may or may not have coordinated that with XML CG

   Issue schemeProtocols-49

    http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html#schemeProtocols-49

    VQ: recall NM was not sure it was worth spending more time on

    NM: I thought it was an area worth working on when I was new to TAG
    ... whether and to what extent the URI scheme determined the 
protocol and
    how that effects the nature of resources in that scheme
    ... In June I said I wanted to write something new ... spent the 
summer
    toying with that.
    ... it is not a rush, it is not clearly broken, let's postpone it 
until we
    deal with P2P issues and have further discussion on how the 
resolution
    process should work.

    DC: Tim Bray had written something about making RSS a one-click, so 
I was
    thinking about how we could do that. Perhaps a SUBSCRIBE method is 
needed
    in general for reloading feeds, web pages, etc.
    ... would like to find a general statement that says "webcal" and 
"feed":
    please don't do that

    NM: there is an attempt to explain the confusion in the draft

    DC: problem is that it is easier to make the misunderstanding 
greater than
    it is to find a precise description of what is actually in the
    architecture

    RF: problem is that schemes are not uniform at all in their 
prescription
    of resource and representation characteristics; writing a simple
    description can be misleading because it is the finer subtleties of 
the
    architecture that make it so extensible.
    ... HTTP, for example, is at its essence a layer of indirection, and
    because of that it is capable of far more than the simplified view of
    "here is a sequence of octets"

    <noah> Noah has to go...I will be on the call next week. See you 
then.

   Issue URNsAndRegistries-50

    http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html#URNsAndRegistries-50

    DC: as I recall, HT still has the ball on this issue

    DC and NW: waiting on Henry to say he is done, please review

    <scribe> ACTION: VQ to check with Henry on progress on
    URNsAndRegistries-50 [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2005/10/04-tagmem-irc]

   circles-and-arrows discussion of versioning at F2F

    <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to say I very much enjoyed the 
circles-and-arrows
    discussion of versioning, and to ask if maybe it would help to try to
    formalize schemeProtocols likewise and to

    <DanC> -- http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2005/09/22-diagram1.graffle

    <DanC> -- http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2005/09/20-class-uml.png

    <DanC> -- http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2005/09/22-diagram1.png

    DC: I would like to see more diagrams that can be run though 
RDF-style XML
    and inferencing engine

    DO: I'll look into my tools to see if they can generate XML

    <scribe> ACTION: DO to update extensibility finding with the result 
of
    Edinburgh F2F discussion and related diagrams [recorded in
    http://www.w3.org/2005/10/04-tagmem-irc]

    <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2005/09/20-class-uml.violet

    <DanC> violet UML diagram tool

    <DanC> DanC gets some encouragement to supplement EDI minutes with
    diagrams, provided he gets some review, e.g. from henry

    DC: will try to provide diagrams for minutes of F2F before next week

   Future F2F meetings

    VQ: next is Dec 5-6 in Cambridge. We scheduled two more at Edinburgh 
with
    details available on the TAG website.

    <DanC> (what VQ says about meeting schedule is consistent with
    http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/#deliverables Date: 2005/09/30 15:20:22 )

    VQ: Ed should check that with his schedule and confirm

    ADJOURNED

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: DanC to link parts of ftf minutes to meeting page 
[recorded
    in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/04-tagmem-irc]
    [NEW] ACTION: DO to draft something indicating the issues with EPR 
and
    potential solutions [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2005/10/04-tagmem-irc]
    [NEW] ACTION: DO to update extensibility finding with the result of
    Edinburgh F2F discussion and related diagrams [recorded in
    http://www.w3.org/2005/10/04-tagmem-irc]
    [NEW] ACTION: Norm to check on current status of issue xml11Names-46 
with
    XML CG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/04-tagmem-irc]
    [NEW] ACTION: VQ to check with CDF WG to see how they have solved 
issue
    and if they have more details [recorded in
    http://www.w3.org/2005/10/04-tagmem-irc]
    [NEW] ACTION: VQ to check with Henry on progress on 
URNsAndRegistries-50
    [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/04-tagmem-irc]

    [PENDING] ACTION: David to write material on state in distributed
    application design [12 jul 05] [recorded in
    http://www.w3.org/2005/10/04-tagmem-irc]

    [End of minutes]
Received on Wednesday, 5 October 2005 15:27:15 GMT

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