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Draft Minutes: TAG Telcon 13th December 2004

From: Williams, Stuart (HP Labs, Bristol) <skw@hp.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 10:07:47 -0000
Message-ID: <8D5B24B83C6A2E4B9E7EE5FA82627DC9600F62@sdcexcea01.emea.cpqcorp.net>
To: <www-tag@w3.org>

I've produced draft minutes of our meeting of 13th December 2004 at [1]
by passing the raw irc log [2] through David Booth's script. For
convenience a text version is included below.

Thanks to Noah for scribing.

Best regards

Stuart
--
[1] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/12/13-tag-summary.html
[2] http:/www.w3.org/2004/12/13-tagemem-irc

                     TAG Weekly Telcon 13th December 2004

13 Dec 2004

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/12/13-tag

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2004/12/13-tagmem-irc

Attendees

   Present
          Noah, Norm, Stuart, Dan, Roy, Tim

   Regrets
          Chris, Lilley

   Chair
          Stuart

   Scribe
          noah

Contents

     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]Administrivia
         2. [6]Tech Plenary
         3. [7]WebArch Publication Status
         4. [8]Issues and Findings
     * [9]Summary of Action Items

     _________________________________________________________________

   <scribe> scribe: noah

   <scribe> scribenick: Noah

Administrivia

   <DanC> that's all 8 of us

   SW: We will meet next week, Dec. 20th

   Regrets for Dec 20: Chris

   Scribe for Dec. 20: Dan

   Minutes for Dec: 6th accepted without dissent
 
([10]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2004Dec/att-0009/tag-
   telcon-

     [10]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2004Dec/att-0009/tag-telcon-

   20041206.html)

   Try that again, the accepted minutes are at:
 
[11]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2004Dec/att-0009/tag-t
   elcon-20041206.html

     [11]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2004Dec/att-0009/tag-telcon-
20041206.html

   (sorry, that first one was a cut/paste error)

   Agreement to accept minutes of F2F of Nov 29th & 30th:
   ([12]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/11/29-30-tag.html)

     [12] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/11/29-30-tag.html

Tech Plenary

   Steve suggests that there may be a panel or working session on
   Versioning at the tech plenary.

   Stuart will talk to David Ezell tomorrow.

WebArch Publication Status

   <DanC> 9 Dec draft
   [13]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/webarch-20041209/#id-resources

     [13] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/webarch-20041209/#id-resources

   <DanC> 9 Dec draft
   [14]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/webarch-20041209/

     [14] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/webarch-20041209/

   Dan gives update on recent work on arch doc. See links immediately
   above.

   <DanC>
   [15]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/webarch-20041209/diff-from-pr.txt

     [15]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/webarch-20041209/diff-from-pr.txt

   And diff link above.

   <DanC>
   [16]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/webarch-20041209/diff-from-pr.txt

     [16]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/webarch-20041209/diff-from-pr.txt

   Discussing the diffs.

   First comment is in response to comments from University of Edinburgh
 
([17]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004O
   ctDec/0171.html)

     [17]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004OctDec/0
171.html

   I'm going to try and paste diffs..let's see if they come over OK.

   This document is an example of an information resource. It consists
of

   words and punctuation symbols and graphics and other artifacts that

   can be encoded, with varying degrees of fidelity, into a sequence of

   bits. There is nothing about the essential information content of
this

   - document that cannot in principle be transfered in a
representation.

   + document that cannot in principle be transfered in a message. In
the

   + case of this document, the message payload is the representation of

   + this document.

   Argh...getting behind...we are working through the diff-from-pr file.
   I will note any substantive discussion.

   Dan reports "the director" is OK with all these, but has asked us as
   TAG to consider Nokia's comment
 
([18]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004O
   ctDec/0170.html)

     [18]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004OctDec/0
170.html

   <DanC>
[19]http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/PR-webarch-20041105/#id-resources

     [19] http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/PR-webarch-20041105/#id-resources

   We are discussing Nokia comment #3, regarding namespaces.

   Nokia's comment was:

   3. Section 4.5.3. XML Namespaces, third paragraph

   Current Text:

   "... If namespace URIs that end with a punctuation or other non-Name
   character are chosen,

   then simple concatenation of the namespace URI and the local

   name creates a URI for a secondary resource (the identified

   term). This technique is used for many [RDFXML] namespaces."

   Replacement Text:

   "... Simple concatenation of the namespace URI and the local

   name creates a URI for the identified term. This technique is

   <Norm>
 
[20]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004Oc
   tDec/0170.html

     [20]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004OctDec/0
170.html

   used for [RDFXML] namespaces."

   <DanC> note NM's suggestion [[

   <DanC> Replacement Text:

   <DanC> "... Simple concatenation of the namespace URI and the local

   <DanC> name creates a URI for the identified term. This technique is

   <DanC> used for [RDFXML] namespaces."

   <DanC> ]]

   <DanC> oops; that was not NM's suggestion

   Right, that was Nokia's suggestion (to which NM actually objects)

   Tim: minimum is clean up text:

   <timbl_> [RDFXML] uses simple concatenation of the namespace URI and
   the local

   <timbl_> name to creates a URI for the identified term.

   <timbl_> I wish that RDFXML had added "#", but there we are.

   Noah: I like that somewhat better than Nokia's. My concern with
   Nokia's is that it appears to apply even to namespaces that don't end
   in some sort of separator character.

   Tim: right, and there's still the question of whether the
concatenated
   URI is actually one that the owner intended to assign for the purpose

   NW: I somewhat agree with Noah's concerns. Maybe we can talk about
   URI's ending in non-name characters?

   Stuart: Noah, would you drop the whole para

   NM: Yes, I guess so.

   SW: I hear 3 proposals as follows:

   From Norm: change reference to # to "separator characters"

   From Noah: drop the para

   From Tim: text quoted above?

   SW: anyone who can't live any of these?

   NW: yes, I don't like dropping the para (Norm, I didn't get the
   reason)

   NW; drafting proposed text...

   <DanC>
   [21]http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/PR-webarch-20041105/#xml-namespaces

     [21] http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/PR-webarch-20041105/#xml-namespaces

   NM: that's name char from XML rec?

   NW: yes

   DC: we're talking about XML namespaces here

   I think this is the net of Norm's proposal:

   For flat namespaces, concatenation is one useful mapping. If
namespace
   URIs that end with a that end with a punctuation or other non-Name
   character are chosen, then simple concatenation of the namespace URI
   and the local name creates a URI for a secondary resource (the
   identified term). This technique is used for many [RDFXML]
namespaces.

   Some discussion of colon as an edge case.

   NW: important point, we need an algorithmic way of breaking these
   apart once they're together. By making sure there's a non-name char,
   we ensure that property.

   TBL: In webarch, is this an example?

   NW: it's a suggestion.

   TBL: Suggesting you can use anything other than # prejudges
   httprange-14, at least insofar as once you use an x/y form to refer
to
   a non-document resource.

   Stuart: Tim, do you object to the proposal to drop the text?

   <DanC> (I sent "test case: colons in paths?" to uri@w3.org)

   TBL: we talk about fragids elsewhere

   NW: perhaps we're at impasse. Nokia objects to #, Tim wants #, each
   feeling the other prejudges http-range14. Therefore, suggest Tim's
   text as best compromise.
   ... It mentions what RDF does, nothing more.

   SW: I note some popular RDF namespaces end in "/"

   <DanC> reviewing, yes, I like: [[

   <DanC> <timbl_> [RDFXML] uses simple concatenation of the namespace
   URI and the local

   <DanC> <timbl_> name to creates a URI for the identified term. ]]

   <Norm> Proposal: For flat namespaces, concatenation is one useful
   mapping. This technique is used for many [RDFXML] namespaces.

   <DanC> (hmm... in fact, it's used for all RDFXML namespaces)

   <timbl_> Note that one set of mappings, such as those which either
   insert a hash sign or use simple allows the local identifier in XML
   syntax to be equal to the the fragment identifier in the URI syntax.

   <DanC> timbl, please do not refer to hash characters.

   <Norm> Proposal: For many flat namespaces, concatenation is one
useful
   mapping. This technique is used by [RDFXML]

   <DanC> i still prefer: [RDFXML] uses simple concatenation of the
   namespace URI and the local name to creates a URI for the identified
   term.

   NM: How about /used by [RDFXML] namespaces/used by many [RDFXML]
   namespaces/

   For many flat namespaces, concatenation is one useful mapping. This
   technique is used by [RDFXML] namespaces."

   Proposal (again with correction): "For many flat namespaces,
   concatenation is one useful mapping. This technique is used by
   [RDFXML].""

   TB: how about dropping work "many"

   <DanC> [[

   <DanC> [RDFXML] uses simple concatenation of the namespace URI and
the
   local name to create a URI for the identified term.

   <DanC> ]]

   NM: two problems (a) still a general problem if there is no separator
   at all (b) I now notice that if there's no separator, you are also
   prejudging http-range14

   Proposal, replace the entire paragraph with: "[RDFXML] uses simple
   concatenation of the namespace URI and the local name to creates a
URI
   for the identified term."

   ALso in the proposal: merge with following paragraph.

   Agreed without dissent.

   <scribe> ACTION: Dan to talk to Steve Bratt regarding changes to
   namespace and #

   SW: anything else to discuss with respect to webarch publication?

   DC: You've seen press release, and there have been some comments. You
   only need to speak up if you want to get into the critical path.
   ... Goal is to get release out tomorrow, may slip to Wed.

   NW: Slipping to Wed. would help Sun.

   SW: Any other testimonials expected?

   NW: Are we satisfied that the work we've done would satisfy
Edinburgh?

   DC: The director has been in contact with commentator.

   <DanC>
   [22]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/webarch-20041209/diff-from-pr.txt

     [22]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/webarch-20041209/diff-from-pr.txt

   <DanC> @@ -2539,7 +2544,9 @@

   NW: Patrick Stickler has sent some additional comments about a week
   ago.

   DC: see the diffs, we've made some changes.

   <Norm> Stickler:
 
[23]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004Oc
   tDec/0169.html

     [23]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004OctDec/0
169.html

   TBL: We seem to have dropped any mention that the namespace document
   is in any way connected to the URI that is the namespace name.

   <timbl_> The information resource identified by an XML Namespace URI

   <timbl_> + An information resource that contains useful information,

   <timbl_> + machine-processable and/or human-readable, about terms in
a

   <timbl_> + particular XML namespace.

   <DanC> (hmm... I thought the glossary was just excerpts from the main
   text. not so, evidently)

   <Norm> not so

   <timbl_> ^that an XML Namespace URI^

   <timbl_> ^that an XML Namespace URI identifies

   <Zakim> Norm, you wanted to ask about Edinburgh and Stickler and to

   Non-scribe contribution. Note that Stickler says:

   "I again propose to the TAG that the definition of 'namespace
   document'

   not reflect any presumption about what any given URI used as a

   namespace name might identify, but to restrict the definition of

   'namespace document' to the distinguishing characteristics of

   that class of resource, and at most, to indicate that it is

   considered useful to use URIs which identify namespace documents

   as namespace names, without erroneously asserting that every URI

   used as a namespace name identifies a namespace document."

   TBL: I don't see him objecting to saying that the URI which is a
   namespace name can be used to identify a namespace document
   ... Would Dave Ragett's (spelling?) book on HTML be a namespace
   document? Per our current definition, it would be.

   <DanC> (I abstain from any definitions that are written out of the
   context of the rest of the document.)

   <Norm> Proposal: An information resource identified by an XML
   Namespace URI that contains useful information, machine-usable and/or
   human-usable, about terms in a particular XML namespace. It is
useful,
   though not manditory, that the URI employed as a namespace name
   identifies a namespace document.

   SW: Notes that Patrick Stickler wrote: "It is useful, though not
   manditory,

   that the URI employed as a namespace name identifies a namespace

   document.

   "

   <Stuart>
 
[24]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004Oc
   tDec/0169.html

     [24]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004OctDec/0
169.html

   SW: I'm OK with it, but not sure Patrick Stickler will be.

   NW: but if we don't put this in, then the HTML book qualifies.

   TBL: I'm not so sure he'd object.

   <timbl_> I would not expect him to object to that.

   DC: I think the objection was to the suggestion that >every< NS URI
   necessarily points to such a document.

   <timbl_> +1 to Norm's proposal

   SW: Calling the question on: "Proposal: An information resource
   identified by an XML Namespace URI that contains useful information,
   machine-usable and/or human-usable, about terms in a particular XML
   namespace. It is useful, though not manditory, that the URI employed
   as a namespace name identifies a namespace document."

   Agreed without abstention.

   <timbl_> Agreed unanimously.

   <DanC> (hmm... now there are changes incoming from NDW and from IJ.
   interesting.)

   NW: I've checked in already the two changes we've agreed to make
   today.

   SW: anyone here in the critical path for press release?

   DC: no

   SW: anything more on webarch?

   All: no

   <DanC> (hmm... who said they'd do something soon in
   [25]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/11/29-30-tag ? )

     [25] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/11/29-30-tag

Issues and Findings

   SW: any comments on the xml-chunk finding

   NW: I've gotten some feedback, but haven't sorted it.

   SW: possible agenda topic for next week?

   <timbl> before we break, I have one heads-up off the record.

   NW: yes, I could do that

   <DanC> [26]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/11/29-30-tag#item08b

     [26] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/11/29-30-tag#item08b

   SW: let's have at least a brief telcon next week

   <Norm> DanC: I've checked in the two changes we discussed today, am I
   off the critical path for the WebArch REC?

   <DanC> hmm

   <DanC> if you prefer, yes. you're welcome to provide eyeballs on the
   final text, title page, SOTD, that sort of thing

   <DanC> i.e. as editor, you have right of review of the final bytes

   <Norm> Ok. I'm happy to provide eyeballs. I wasn't asking in an
effort
   to get out of working, just to make sure we didn't have a deadlock
:-)

   <DanC> ok, then I take it that you're not waiving that right, and you
   are, as of now, still on the critical path

   <DanC> you may wave it at any time

   <Norm> No, I'm not waiving it. I'll keep my eyeballs tuned :-)

   <DanC> there, Noah, the logs are captured. Scribe duties include at
   least mailing a pointer to www-tag@w3.org

   <DanC> bonus points for editing it

   <DanC> there's a perl script that sorta makes nice HTML out of the
IRC
   log, but if you haven't done it before, it's perhaps not worth
   bothering

   <DanC> hmm... I'm not entirely clear how we disposed of Nokia's 1st 2
   points.

   <DanC>
 
[27]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004Oc
   tDec/0170.html

     [27]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004OctDec/0
170.html

   <DanC> ugh... no "persistence" change in
   [28]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/webarch-20041209/diff-from-pr.txt

     [28]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/webarch-20041209/diff-from-pr.txt

   <Norm> Gack. We started with point 3 so I assumed 1 and 2 had been
   done earlier.

   <Norm> Personally, I'm happy with the changes they propose.

   <DanC> let's see what Ian said about those... "I think TBL input is
   important here so I did not make any changes"

   <DanC> phpht.

   <timbl_> Norm?

   <DanC>
 
[29]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004Oc
   tDec/0170.html

     [29]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004OctDec/0
170.html

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Dan to talk to Steve Bratt regarding changes to
   ... namespace and #

     _________________________________________________________________


    Minutes formatted by David Booth's [30]scribe.perl 1.99 ([31]CVS
    log)
    $Date: 2004/12/17 10:01:23 $

     [30] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribe.perl
     [31] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/scribe.perl
Received on Friday, 17 December 2004 10:09:14 GMT

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