- From: Ian B. Jacobs <ij@w3.org>
- Date: 30 Jun 2003 19:13:08 -0400
- To: www-tag@w3.org
Hello,
Minutes from the 30 June 2003 TAG teleconf are available
as HTML [1] and as text below.
_ Ian
[1] http://www.w3.org/2003/06/30-tag-summary.html
========================================================
Minutes of 30 June 2003 TAG teleconference
Nearby: [4]IRC |[5]Teleconference details · [6]issues list ·
[7]www-tag archive
[4] http://www.w3.org/2003/06/30-tagmem-irc.html
[5] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/#remote
[6] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/ilist
[7] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/
1. Administrative
1. Roll call: SW (Chair), TBL, NW, DC, TB, CL, IJ. Regrets: RF, PC,
DO
2. Accepted minutes of [8]23 Jun teleconference
3. Accepted this [9]agenda
4. Next meeting: 7 July
5. The TAG does not expect to meet 18 Aug, 25 Aug, 1 Sep.
[8] http://www.w3.org/2003/06/23-tag-summary.html
[9] http://www.w3.org/2003/06/30-tag.html
Next meeting with Voice WG?
SW: IJ and I met with some reps from Voice WG last week. They
are revising some proposed text. They will circulate to IJ and
me for review. If all goes well, I'd like to schedule some time
with them to confirm it.
Proposed: Voice WG expected to join our 7 July teleconf for a
small piece.
SW: If we have material from them we'll try to include them in
next week's call.
2. Technical
2.1 Architecture document
[10]27 June 2003 Working Draft of Arch Doc published.
1. Action RF 2003/06/02: Rewrite section 5. Section 5 is expected to
be short.
2. Completed action DO 2003/06/02: Write up a couple of paragraphs on
extensibility for section 4 ([11]Done).
3. Action IJ 2003/06/16: Attempt to incorporate relevant bits of
"[12]Conversations and State" into section to be produced by RF.
4. Action PC 2003/06/16: Send second draft of AC announcement
regarding TAG's last call expectations/thoughts and relation to AC
meeting feedback.
SW: I have no update on that action,.
[10] http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-webarch-20030627/
[11] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Jun/0086.html
[12] http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Conversations
[Ian]
IJ: New draft published last Friday. Comments are coming in on
previous draft; I haven't read them. TB and DC did editorial
pass.
DC: Balance between story and formal spec to my liking now. I'd
like to add an illustration for the travel scenario.
TB: I have discomfort on the section on authority (section
2.3). I don't know why we have a section if not for
programmers' benefits.
DC: I think this will be connected to an issue TBL is about to
raise.
SW: We are likely to be looking at this document at ftf
meeting.
[TBray]
For the record: I am substantially uncomfortable with
[13]http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#URI-authority because I don't
understand what normative effect it would have on the behavior
of implementors. If none, lose it. If some, specifiy it.
[13] http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#URI-authority
[DanCon]
keep in mind web arch impacts folks that read and write
documents, not just coders, tim bray
[DanCon]
(not to say I'm 100% happy with #URI-authority section as
written)
The following discussion took place at the end of the meeting.
[Ian]
TB: Things that we need to worry about (e.g., Chap 4 still
missing)
[DanCon]
"2.3. URI Authority"
[Ian]
TB: I think we need time at ftf to talk about sections 2.3 and
3.2.1
[DanCon]
"3.2.1. Desirable Characteristics of Format Specifications"
[Chris]
3.2.2.2. Final-form v. Reusable conflicts in some ways with
cp26
[Ian]
Check out:
[14]http://www.w3.org/People/Bos/DesignGuide/introduction
[14] http://www.w3.org/People/Bos/DesignGuide/introduction
[timbl]
Ok, so we have a commitment to put it on but nothing to
reference yet.
[Ian]
IJ: I'd prune this section. Also, some of this text not
specific to Web arch.
[Zakim]
DanCon, you wanted to note xlinkScope-23 has a home in "3.2.4.
Embedding Hyperlinks in Representations"
[Ian]
DC: I see xlinkscope has a home in 3.2.4
IJ: I think CL is working on too much stuff right now.
CL actions include: error handling, content/presentation
2.2 Findings
See also: [15]findings.
[15] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/findings
2.2.1 contentTypeOverride-24
* [16]Client handling of MIME headers; see [17]summary of comments.
1. Action SW 2003/06/23: Talk to Voice Browser WG about proposed
text, then bring back to TAG.
2. Completed action IJ 2003/06/16: Add to draft finding
discussion about servers not guessing header information
(e.g., charset). Completed in 25 June draft of finding.
3. Completed aaction IJ 2003/06/23: Revise finding based on
discussion of 23 June TAG teleconf. ([18]Done)
[16] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/mime-respect.html
[17] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003May/0099.html
[18] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Jun/0071.html
[Ian]
IJ: Next steps? Does anyone want to read before we say "We
think we're done"?
CL: Has the SMIL IG been contacted?
IJ: No.
[TBray]
Scenario 2 in Section 2 has funny formatting; grey surround-box
misshapen
[Ian]
Action CL, NW: Read this draft by next week.
[Chris]
i will review it (skimmed but not read in detail)
[Ian]
DC: Should this go to public-tag-announce?
SW: I hesitate. People reading minutes will see this
discussion.
[Chris]
if people want to discuss it that should happen on www-tag
[Ian]
Action IJ: Announce on www-tag that we expect to approve this
finding in a week or so. Last chance for comments.
[Chris]
this is also relevant to the error handling issue
2.2.2 xmlIdSemantics-32
* [19]How should the problem of identifying ID semantics in XML
languages be addressed in the absence of a DTD?
[19] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/xmlIDSemantics-32.html
[Ian]
CL: I haven't completely updated. But nearly done. We should
update with latest info.
SW: Should we offer an opinion?
[DanCon]
"No conclusion is presented." --
[20]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/xmlIDsemantics-32.html
[20] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/xmlIDsemantics-32.html
[Ian]
CL: The XML Core WG has been discussing this. I don't think we
should pick a favorite from the TAG.
NW: I agree with CL on that point The Core WG is working on
this.
IJ: Next steps?
Action CL: Revise this draft finding with new input from
reviewers. 7 July Deadline.
The TAG did not discuss the following at this meeting:
* [21]URIs, Addressability, and the use of HTTP GET and POST; see
[22]summary of comments. See also [23]comments from Larry
Masinter.
+ [24]whenToUseGet-7
o Next step for [25]revised draft finding?
o Action IJ 2003/06/23: Incorporate a sentence about scope
based on LM comments.
* Action CL 2003/06/02: Make available a draft finding on
content/presentation.
* Action SW 2003/06/02: Continue work on and make available a draft
finding related to the opacity of URIs.
* Action IJ 2003/06/09: Turn [26]TB apple story into a finding.
[21] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/whenToUseGet-20030509.html
[22] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003May/0099.html
[23] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003May/0104.html
[24] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/ilist.html#whenToUseGet-7
[25] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/get7-20020610.html
[26] http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2003/04/30/AppleWA
2.3 Issues the TAG intends to discuss (45 mins)
The TAG expects to do a walk-through of the open and pending
[27]issues in order to determine:
1. Is this issue nearly closed?
2. Do we want to close this issue before going to last call?
3. Do we want to discuss this issue at the face-to-face meeting?
[27] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/open-summary.html
See [28]summary from Stuart.
* [29]URIEquivalence-15
+ SW proposal: Track RFC2396bis where [30]Tim Bray text has
been integrated. Comment within the IETF process. Move this
issue to pending state.
[28] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2003Jun/0095.html
[29] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/open-summary.html#URIEquivalence-15
[30] http://www.textuality.com/tag/uri-comp-4
[Ian]
TB: Pending, since RFC2396bis not finished. There was never a
formal expression from TAG on those drafts. But every issue
that arose we hammered out.
[Question of whether we should have a finding to close off the
issue]
TB: I don't think we should.
CL: Mark your drafts as obsoleted.
[Chris]
[31]http://www.textuality.com/tag/uri-comp-4
[31] http://www.textuality.com/tag/uri-comp-4
[Ian]
TBL: DC made a comment in a meeting with which I agreed - there
are some axioms about resolution of relative URis that are not
written in rfc2396bis.
DC: I do worry about that.
TBL: Normalization of "../" and "./" for example. Need a
statement about invariants.
SW: I suggest you raise an issue with RF on the URI list.
TB: W.r.t. last call, I think we have a dependence on
RFC2396bis. We are stuck with a reference to a moving target
for now...
[Some agreement that not much need for ftf time on this issue.]
[DanCon]
15 | Yes | No # my summary
If there's spare time, I'd like to, but don't squeeze something
else off.
* [32]HTTPSubstrate-16
+ Action RF 2003/02/06: Write a response to IESG asking whether
the Web services example in the SOAP 1.2 primer is intended
to be excluded from RFC 3205
+ See [33]message from Larry Masinter w.r.t. Web services.
[32] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/open-summary.html#HTTPSubstrate-16
[33] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Feb/0208.html
[Ian]
DC: I think that LM did the comparison that we asked RF to do.
[TBray]
[34]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Feb/0208.ht
ml
[34] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Feb/0208.html
[Ian]
DC: I think that msg merits discussion. Not sure whether in the
path to last call. The business about why not create a new URI
scheme is relevant here. Suppose ldap were being designed
today. They could design a new protocol and make a new URI
scheme. Or they could use HTTP as a substrate. The principle
about don't make up new URI schemes and HTTP as substrate are
related.
TB: While that's fair, I think that our comments are
sufficiently general so that we don't need to change anything.
If we want to provide information about when it is worth the
cost, that might be ok.
[DanCon] I'd like to know Orchard's sense of propority of
HTTPSubstrate-16
16 - Resolve for last call: No. Discussion at ftf: Spare time.
* [35]errorHandling-20
+ Action CL 2003/02/06: Write a draft finding on the topic of
(1) early/late detection of errors (2) late/early binding (3)
robustness (4) definition of errors (5) recovery once error
has been signaled. Due first week of March.
[35] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/open-summary.html#errorHandling-20
[Ian]
See [36]Notes from Chris Lilley.
CL: "Ignorability" is something I'd like to discuss. If you get
a file and it has an attribute in a namespace that you are
supposed to understand, then that's an error. But if you add
your own attribute in your own namespace, considered good way
to extend. I think we should stay clear of extensions to XML.
TB: Some errors depend on application... In 3.2.1 of latest
arch doc, bullet on attention to error handling.
[36] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2003Jun/0099.html
[Chris]
dan - yes, the notes say that and give examples of harm from
silent recovery and attempted recovery
[Ian]
TB: We might put something in section on XML...I would kind of
be inclined to declare victory based on what's in 3.2.1
[Zakim]
DanCon, you wanted to say I'd like "silent recovery from errors
considered harmful" in this last-call draft
[Ian]
DC: What I want in the last call draft is that "Silent recovery
from error is harmful" to be in a box; critical for last call.
CL: Notes that I sent in gave some examples of bad consequences
of silent recovery.
[CL cites example of browsers that consider </p> an error and
treat it as <p>, so extra vertical space]
[Zakim]
timbl, you wanted to suggest we have said a bit too much about
errors - one cannot tell people what to do if they do have an
error.
[Chris]
aha - be careful what specs say about errors, that sort of
thing?
[Ian]
TBL: I'm concerned about going too far in direction of saying
how to design an application.
[Chris]
carefully distinguish from errors (fatal) and warnings
[DanCon]
I share timbl's concern. I still stand by "silent recovery from
errors considered harmful"
[Ian]
[TBL cites example of inconsistent RDF; application-dependent
scenarios]
[Chris]
at user option is no use in a batch job - good point TimBL
[Ian]
TBL: I don't like the SGML attitude of specifying the behavior
of an agent. Just say what the tags mean. Don't tie down specs
with overly narrow error-handling requirements.
[Zakim]
TBray, you wanted to agree with Dan about getting "silent
failure considered harmful" into webarch before last call
[Ian]
TB: I think we have consensus that "silent recovery from
errors" is probably bad behavior in the context of web arch.
[Chris]
have separate conformance reuirements for correct docs, correct
generators, and correct readers
[Ian]
TB: I'd like to spend some time at ftf meeting on this.
[Chris]
and correct user agents a s asubset of readers
[Ian]
TB: XML's "halt and catch fire" might have been too much...
DC: I second talking about ftf.
CL: Not sure this is in the way of last call. Yes to discussion
at ftf
[DanCon]
I think we might end up splitting it in half and closing one
half.
[Ian]
TB: This one might not require a finding.
[Chris]
[37]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2002May/0124
[37] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2002May/0124
[Ian]
CL: Specs, in the conformance section should be clear about
when they are talking about documents, generators, and
consumers.
[DanCon]
"What should specifications say about error handling?"
[38]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/ilist#errorHandling-20
[38] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/ilist#errorHandling-20
[Ian]
20: Schedule at ftf, try to close before last call.
* [39]xlinkScope-23
+ Status report?
+ See [40]draft, and [41]SW message to CG chairs.
[39] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/ilist.html#xlinkScope-23
[40] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2003Mar/0094.html
[41] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2003Mar/0104
[Ian]
SW: Last action was to write to HTCG and XML Core WG. I've had
no feedback from either group.
CL: The XML CG has discussed. A task force to be created. The
HTCG has discussed briefly. Some people seem interested....3/4
of a task force formed...
[TBray]
Suggest not on critical path for last cal
[Ian]
CL: Moving forward, but not much momentum.
Action CL: Ping the chairs of those groups asking for an update
on xlinkScope-23.
SW: I set expectations that TAG would have a last look.
DC to TBL: Is what's going on with xlinkScope-23 consistent
with your expectations?
[Stuart]
From: [42]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2003Mar/0104
" We believe that since we last considered this issue, there
has been substantially more input to the discussion, and thus
we will commit
to taking up the issue once again and, should we achieve
consensus, publish
that position as our contribution to work in this area."
[42] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2003Mar/0104
[Ian]
TBL: I have the feeling that the way this will be resolved
"nicely" is a new version of xlink or hlink that is simpler.
DC: My opinion is "no" and "no" (for 23)
CL: I agree with "no" and "no"
* [43]contentTypeOverride-24
+ Next step on finding "[44]Client handling of MIME headers"
+ [45]Speech Recognition Grammar Specification Version 1.0,
section [46]2.2.2 External Reference by URI
+ Completed action TB 2003/06/23: Ask www-tag for info about
security whole related to contentTypeOverride.
+ Completed action IJ 2003/06/23: Update finding based on
comments from 16, 23 June teleconfs. ([47]done)
[43] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/open-summary.html#contentTypeOverride-24
[44] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/mime-respect.html
[45] http://www.w3.org/TR/speech-grammar/
[46] http://www.w3.org/TR/speech-grammar/#S2.2.2
[47] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/mime-respect-20030625
[Ian]
SW: I think we'll have this resolved for last call. Probably
don't need to discuss at ftf.
[DanCon] on 24, I suggest yes for lc, no for ftf. (what Stuart just
said)
* [48]contentPresentation-26
+ Action CL 2003/02/06: Create a draft finding in this space.
Due 3 March.
[48] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/open-summary.html#contentPresentation-26
[Ian]
CL: I was working on this one today.
[DanCon]
on 26, I guess I'm no for lc, yes for ftf
[Ian]
CL: I'd like to have some discussion before last call. And
discussion at ftf since not yet discussed.
[DanCon]
(don't mind trying for 26 for lc)
[Ian]
CL: The finding I'm writing is a bit wordy.... If we all agree,
could be slipped in; but don't think it needs to be in before
last call. But I'd prefer.
DC: Worth a try.
* [49]IRIEverywhere-27
+ Action CL 2003/04/07: Revised position statement on use of
IRIs. CL says to expect this by 21 April.
+ Action TBL 2003/04/28: Explain how existing specifications
that handle IRIs are inconsistent. [50]TBL draft not yet
available on www-tag.
+ See TB's[51]proposed step forward on IRI 27.
[49] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/open-summary.html#IRIEverywhere-27
[50] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2003Apr/0074.html
[51] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Apr/0090.html
[Ian]
TB: I think that after back and forth, we decided that the IRI
draft was not cooked enough yet. I don't think we need to solve
before last call. I don't think we need to discuss at ftf
either.
[Zakim]
Chris, you wanted to talk about a new and related issue
[Ian]
CL: New and related issue - When do you use URIs for labels for
things?
[Or should you use strings]
CL: I've started a writeup on this one...
SW: I hear "no" and "no" for 27.
TBL: IRIs extend 15 into IRIs. I think we could even work on
this independent of IRI spec. Is this urgent?
[Chris]
yes its urgent, according to the XML activity
[Ian]
DC: I'd like ftf time on this one.
* [52]fragmentInXML-28 : Use of fragment identifiers in XML.
1. Connection to content negotiation?
2. Connection to opacity of URIs?
3. No actions associated / no owner.
[52] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/ilist#fragmentInXML-28
[Ian]
[No actions]
DC: Please add this to the pile containing 6, 37, 38
[TBL: And soon-to-be 39]
DC: "no" and "yes"
* [53]binaryXML-30
+ Action TB 2003/02/17: Write to www-tag with his thoughts on
adding to survey.
+ Next steps to finding? See [54]summary from Chris.
[53] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/open-summary.html#binaryXML-30
[54] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Feb/0224.html
[Ian]
CL: I'd like to do a survey for this issue.
[DanCon]
why does this have a "resultion summary" if it's still open? I
don't see how "draft" would resolve the apprent contradition
between an issue being in "assigned" state and having a
"resolution summary". not urgent.
[Ian]
[Dan, it should say "draft"]
Summary from CL:
[55]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Feb/0224.ht
ml
TBL: I'd like to add OGC to the entry for this issues list.
SW: No and No
[55] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Feb/0224.html
* [56]metadataInURI-31
+ Action SW 2003/02/06: Draft finding for this one. See [57]SW
proposal
+ See also [58]TB email on Apple Music Store and use of URI
schemes instead of headers
[56] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/open-summary.html#metadataInURI-31
[57] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2003May/0050.html
[58] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Apr/0151.html
[Ian]
SW: I hope to put out for TAG review this week.
IJ: Seem slike 31 is low-hanging fruit.
SW: No, Yes.
* [59]xmlIDSemantics-32
+ See [60]Chris Lilley draft finding.
Action NW 2003/05/05: Point Core WG to CL finding once made
public.
[59] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/ilist#xmlIDSemantics-32
[60] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/xmlIDSemantics-32.html
[Ian]
CL: I suggest we leave in pending. "No", "No"
* [61]mixedUIXMLNamespace-33
[61] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/open-summary.html#mixedUIXMLNamespace-33
[Ian]
No, no.
[timbl]
no no
[Ian]
CL: I'm happy to have discussion at ftf and write that up.
TBL: Connects to composable things.
* [62]xmlFunctions-34
+ Action TBL 2003/02/06: State the issue with a reference to
XML Core work. See [63]email from TimBL capturing some of the
issues.
[62] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/ilist#xmlFunctions-34
[63] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Feb/0309.html
TBL: No, no
* [64]RDFinXHTML-35
[64] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/open-summary.html#RDFinXHTML-35
DC: No, Yes. There is movement on this; I'd like some ftf time.
* [65]siteData-36
+ Action TBL 2003/02/24 : Summarize siteData-36
[65] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/ilist.html#siteData-36
[Ian]
DC, TB: I'd like some ftf time on this.
[Norm]
+1
[Ian]
TB: I don't think impacts arch doc.
DC: Agreed
[Chris] no,no for me
* [66]abstractComponentRefs-37
+ See [67]issue description from David Orchard. Next steps?
+ Action DO 2003/06/23: Point Jonathan Marsh at options. Ask
them for their analysis.
* [68]putMediaType-38
[66] http://www.w3.org/2003/06/24-tag-summary.html#abstractComponentRefs-37
[67] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Apr/0089.html
[68] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/open-summary.html#putMediaType-38
DC: Cluster 6, 28, 37, 38
2.4 New issues?
The TAG does not expect to discuss new issues at this meeting.
1. [69]Summary from Stuart
[69] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2003Jun/0055.html
2.5 Issues that have associated action items
* [70]rdfmsQnameUriMapping-6
+ Action DC 2003/02/06: Propose TAG response to XML Schema
desideratum ([71]RQ-23).
* [72]namespaceDocument-8
+ Action TB 2003/04/07: Prepare RDDL Note. Include in status
section that there is TAG consensus that RDDL is a suitable
format for representations of an XML namespace. Clean up
messy section 4 of RDDL draft and investigate and publish a
canonical mapping to RDF. See TB's [73]1 June version.
+ Action PC 2003/04/07: Prepare finding to answer this issue,
pointing to the RDDL Note. See [74]comments from Paul
regarding TB theses.
+ Refer to draft TAG [75]opinion from Tim Brayon the use of
URNs for namespace names.
o RF: Folks assume that because the specs say so, URNs
will be persisitent. But persistence is a function of
institutional commitment and frequency of use.
* [76]uriMediaType-9
+ IANA appears to have responded to the spirit of this draft
(see [77]email from Chris Lilley).What's required to close
this issue?
+ Action CL 2003/05/05: Propose CL's three changes to
registration process to Ned Freed. [What forum?]
[70] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/open-summary.html#rdfmsQnameUriMapping-6
[71] http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-xmlschema-11-req-20030121/#N400183
[72] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/open-summary.html#namespaceDocument-8
[73] http://www.tbray.org/tag/rddl/rddl3.html
[74] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2003Apr/0046.html
[75] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Jun/0003.html
[76] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/open-summary.html#uriMediaType-9
[77] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Feb/0302.html
3. Other actions
* Action IJ 2003/02/06: Modify issues list to show that
actions/pending are orthogonal to decisions. IJ and PLH making
substantial progress on this; hope to have something to show in
May.
_________________________________________________________________
Ian Jacobs for Stuart Williams and TimBL
Last modified: $Date: 2003/06/30 23:05:51 $
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Ian Jacobs (ij@w3.org) http://www.w3.org/People/Jacobs
Tel: +1 718 260-9447
Received on Monday, 30 June 2003 19:13:11 UTC