Minutes, SVG working group telcon, 24 June 2019

Hi,

Sadly are meeting generator failed to create the meeting minutes last week (https://www.w3.org/2019/06/24-svg-minutes.html). At the end a log of my IRC client.

Resolutions:
1. All characters inside a text element should be shaped as if they are one unit

Thanks,
Dirk

Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
10:01 PM Date: 24 June 2019
10:01 PM K<krit> Dirk Schulze chair: krit
10:01 PM present+ krit
10:02 PM T<Tavmjong> Be there in a few minutes...
10:03 PM M<myles> present+ myles
10:05 PM S<stakagi> present+
10:05 PM T<Tavmjong> present+
10:09 PM K<krit> Dirk Schulze scribenick: krit
10:09 PM topic: Text with multiple x="" values should be shaped as if it was not broken
10:09 PM GitHub: https://github.com/w3c/svgwg/issues/631

10:09 PM G— github-bot OK, I'll post this discussion to https://github.com/w3c/svgwg/issues/631 (Text with multiple x="" values should be shaped as if it was not broken).
10:10 PM K<krit> Dirk Schulze myles: If you have text element in SVG and it has an attribute x="..." with a list of values... in latin text every letter gets placed at a different position. So for each element the letters can spread out across the document. This makes sense in western latin script. In arabic or Hindi there are shaping rules that are conceptional.
10:11 PM myles: If you split up the text and position each letter... how should the shaping interact
10:11 PM myles: should they get shaped as separate runs or should letters be shaped in the same run...
10:11 PM → chris_ joined (chris@public.cloak<mailto:chris@public.cloak>)
10:11 PM K<krit> Dirk Schulze Tavmjong: Similar to styling: if you fill a letter with red then the shaping should not be broken
10:12 PM Tavmjong: Tango works like that. You can shape a span by itself but you have context before and after. Tango knows how to shape the main thing.
10:12 PM Tavmjong: haven't tried in InkScape hard enough.
10:12 PM Tavmjong: I do agree that shaping should not be broken
10:12 PM Tavmjong: we explicitly state in SVG 1.1 that literatures are broken
10:13 PM Tavmjong: optional literature's are broken and that makes sense.
10:13 PM Tavmjong: for instance with spacing by letter-spacing
10:13 PM myles: someone from the i11n group mentioned that shaping has meaning.
10:14 PM myles: shaping has a meaning to a reader. So we should not change the shaping.
10:14 PM chris_: That is true but also: if you put text on path the baseline is shaping and you can fake it.
10:14 PM chris_: but you should probably go to icon glyphs
10:14 PM C<chris_> s/icon/isolate
10:15 PM K<krit> Dirk Schulze Tavmjong: from the implementation side... no one actually implemented breaking shaping
10:15 PM Tavmjong: InkScape breaks shaping
10:16 PM → Sairus_Patel joined (~Sairus_Patel@public.cloak<mailto:Sairus_Patel@public.cloak>)
10:16 PM K<krit> Dirk Schulze Tavmjong: but Tango does have an option to send an entire paragraph so that it understands the context. So it is just a matter of using this functionality in InkScape.
10:17 PM myles: So each caharcter gets rendered in isolation in InkScape?
10:17 PM Tavmjong: right now.
10:17 PM myles: WebKit does the exact same thing and is wrong. It should be fixed.
10:17 PM Tavmjong: agre
10:18 PM krit: What about Blink
10:18 PM myles: don't know.
10:19 PM Tavmjong: would be great to have some tests.
10:19 PM myles: I can submit some tests
10:19 PM myles: I think the resolution would be: characters in a single element are shaped in a unit
10:19 PM Tavmjong: I think we need to be stronger
10:20 PM Tavmjong: characters in any text element that need shaped.
10:20 PM Tavmjong: like a span with multiple colors
10:20 PM myles: we can make it stronger.
10:20 PM myles: All characters inside a text element should be shaped as if they are one unit
10:21 PM RESOLUTION: All characters inside a text element should be shaped as if they are one unit
10:21 PM topic: A separate MIME type for svgz files is needed
10:21 PM G— github-bot Successfully commented on https://github.com/w3c/svgwg/issues/631 and removed the "Agenda+" label
10:21 PM K<krit> Dirk Schulze GitHub: https://github.com/w3c/svgwg/issues/701

10:21 PM G— github-bot OK, I'll post this discussion to https://github.com/w3c/svgwg/issues/701 (A separate MIME type for svgz files is needed).
10:23 PM K<krit> Dirk Schulze chris_: there is a content type and a content encoding
10:23 PM chris_: I remember ppl had mime types for svg+gzip
10:24 PM chris_: over time it got clarified and the SVG spec is the way it is
10:24 PM chris_: there also was a desire to do compression for the server since it was uncommon to zip dynamically.
10:24 PM chris_: if we change the mime type now, svgz would stop working.
10:25 PM chris_: I think the original commenter is wrong
10:25 PM chris_: Maybe I can give the issue creator give the history and maybe it convinces him
10:26 PM myles: how can applications differ between the 2 types today?
10:26 PM chris_: I think implementations just look at the first bytes.
10:26 PM chris_: In moder use you just drop an SVG file on the server and the server will do the compression on the fly.
10:27 PM chris_: we were competing with flash and it was important to have small files.
10:27 PM chris_: but having a separate mime type might never fly.
10:27 PM chris_: of course I can argue against having 2 types sharing the same mime type but that is history.
10:30 PM krit: chris_ will reply on the thread and we will pick it up again if there is a negative response.
10:30 PM present+ myles
10:30 PM present+ Tavmjong
10:30 PM present+ chris_
10:30 PM present+ Sairus_Patel
10:30 PM ⇐ Sairus_Patel quit (~Sairus_Patel@public.cloak<mailto:Sairus_Patel@public.cloak>) "Page closed"
10:31 PM K<krit> Dirk Schulze trackbot, end telcon