Minutes, 16 April 2015 SVG WG telcon

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     http://www.w3.org/2015/04/16-svg-minutes.html


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    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                     SVG Working Group Teleconference

16 Apr 2015

    [2]Agenda

       [2] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2015Apr/0010.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2015/04/16-svg-irc

Attendees

    Present
           Doug_Schepers, [IPcaller], ed, AmeliaBR, stakagi,
           Thomas_Smailus, birtles, [Microsoft], Tav

    Regrets
    Chair
           ed

    Scribe
           ed

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]stroke-dasharray="0"
          2. [6]meeting at TPAC?
          3. [7]SVG 2 open issue discussion
          4. [8]chapter 19, extensibility
          5. [9]animations chapter
          6. [10]deprecating xlink:href
      * [11]Summary of Action Items
      __________________________________________________________

    <trackbot> Date: 16 April 2015

    <smailus> afk for bio break

    <scribe> scribeNick: ed

stroke-dasharray="0"

    [12]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2015Apr/0001.h
    tml

      [12] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2015Apr/0001.html

    ABR: there was a inconsistency between firefox and the other
    browsers when you had stroke-dasharray=0
    ... comes down to some unclear prose
    ... spec said should be treated as a value of none was
    specified, but it was unclear where that meant for the stroke
    or for stroke-dasharray
    ... <reads proposed text>
    ... so still draw the stroke, but don't dash it
    ... Robert Longson was happy with the proposed wording
    ... so, can we resolve on doing that clarification?

    All: yes

    <scribe> ACTION: AmeliaBR to clarify the wording around
    stroke-dasharray=0 to say that that means draw the stroke but
    don't dash it [recorded in
    [13]http://www.w3.org/2015/04/16-svg-minutes.html#action01]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3777 - Clarify the wording around
    stroke-dasharray=0 to say that that means draw the stroke but
    don't dash it [on Amelia Bellamy-Royds - due 2015-04-23].

meeting at TPAC?

    DS: it's in Sapporo, Japan
    ... we need to let the planners know if SVGWG is meeting, by
    apr 30
    ... and we don't want to meet with days overlapping with CSS
    ... who here will attend?

    Rossen: we're going to have somebody there, probably me and
    maybe bogdan
    ... will attend CSS too

    ED: will go if SVG is meeting

    DS: will go

    BB: I expect I'll go

    <TabAtkins> I'm attending.

    <stakagi> will go

    Tav: I'll probably not go, too expensive for two days

    TPAC is 26-30 Oct 2015

    DS: does anyone think we shouldn't meet at tpac?

    <silence>

    DS: thu-fri is typically when svg meets
    ... might be a bit crowded, but no problem
    ... assuming people in the group will attend CSS too, so we
    shouldn't have overlap

    Rossen: maybe FXTF too?

    DS: will we have one?

    Rossen: sure, if there are things to discuss
    ... assuming it'll happen on wednesday
    ... or perhaps take some time from the css or svg meeting

    <scribe> ACTION: ed to respond to the TPAC organizers saying
    SVG will meet at TPAC 2015 [recorded in
    [14]http://www.w3.org/2015/04/16-svg-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3778 - Respond to the tpac organizers
    saying svg will meet at tpac 2015 [on Erik Dahlström - due
    2015-04-23].

SVG 2 open issue discussion

    [15]https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Chapter_Assess
    ment

      [15] https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Chapter_Assessment

    Rossen: orthogonal question, some chapter are assigned to Dirk,
    anyone know if he's still active in the group, and if he's
    going to work on the things he's assigned?
    ... if not, we should divvy up the chapters on other ppl

    DS: he hasn't been on the calls recently

    AmeliaBR: he's been active on the list

    Rossen: ok, moving on to the issues then

chapter 19, extensibility

    <Rossen>
    [16]https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Chapter_Assess
    ment#Extensibility_.28Rossen.29

      [16]  
https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Chapter_Assessment#Extensibility_.28Rossen.29

    <AmeliaBR> [17]https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/extend.html#issue2

      [17] https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/extend.html#issue2

    AmeliaBR: issue 2 and 3, it's not specific to foreignObject
    ... going to come up all over the svg dom
    ... what to do with the attributes we turned into presentation
    attributes, has to be done consistently across the board

    Rossen: sounds good
    ... I believe the issues were raised in the wrong part of the
    spec
    ... not specific to FO itself
    ... I woudln't expect anythign special here

    BB: the only thing that might be different
    ... maybe because it's not used so much we could make them
    domstrings

    AmeliaBR: I'd advise caution there
    ... ppl also expect things to work the same way

    BB: ppl probably don't use animVal for width and height on a FO

    Rossen: but what makes FO special here?

    BB: if the APIs aren't used (much) it'd be nicer to be able to
    simplify things

    ED: I'm fine with moving this to whatever chapter needs to deal
    with this, I agree that the extensibility chapter shouldn't do
    it alone

    Rossen: fine with moving it to the proper chapter

    DS: might be useful to raise an issue in ext chapter about
    other ways to embed html
    ... we should raise such an issue here as a placeholder

    AmeliaBR: iframe and foreignObject have similarities

    DS: maybe those two chapters should simply be merged

    AmeliaBR: there's a difference in linking vs embedding, but
    merging might make sense

    DS: I wouldn't look for FO in an extensibility chapter

    Rossen: I can merge those chapters if that's what we want to do
    ... I see that in embedded content chapter, there are other
    examples of x,y,width,height presentation attributes

    <scribe> ACTION: Rossen to merge the embedded content and
    extensibility chapters (removing the ext chapter) [recorded in
    [18]http://www.w3.org/2015/04/16-svg-minutes.html#action03]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3779 - Merge the embedded content and
    extensibility chapters (removing the ext chapter) [on Rossen
    Atanassov - due 2015-04-23].

animations chapter

    Rossen: three issues needing discussion

    <Rossen> [19]https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/animate.html#issue2

      [19] https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/animate.html#issue2

    AmeliaBR: what is #xC?

    Tav: it's form feed

    AmeliaBR: consistency is good

    ED: so, I did some changes to the types chapter to align what
    is considered "whitespace" across svg, html and css
    ... it was previously referenced from here (I think)
    ... the types chapter is referencing css now, so automatically
    is aligned with that
    ... I think the animations chapter should use the same
    definition of whitespace

    Rossen: ok, sounds good, point to css definition of whitespace

    RESOLUTION: align what is considered whitespace in animations
    chapter with CSS, by referencing css' definition of whitespace

    <scribe> ACTION: Rossen to reference CSS' definition of
    whitespace for the S production in the animations chapter
    (issue 2) [recorded in
    [20]http://www.w3.org/2015/04/16-svg-minutes.html#action04]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3780 - Reference css' definition of
    whitespace for the s production in the animations chapter
    (issue 2) [on Rossen Atanassov - due 2015-04-23].

    <Rossen> [21]https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/animate.html#issue8

      [21] https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/animate.html#issue8

    Rossen: this is unclear to me
    ... should we reference the transform property, or what is this
    about?

    <TabAtkins> The CSS definition of whitespace is at
    [22]http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-syntax/#whitespace

      [22] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-syntax/#whitespace

    <TabAtkins> (Note that u+000c is processed out during
    preprocessing, and so doesn't show up in the definition
    explicitly. There's a note covering this.)

    BB: not sure who added this, but maybe that you can use the
    regular animate element to animate transform

    AmeliaBR: I think the immidiate issue is to just change the
    text, so that animateTransform refers to the transform style
    property as well as the attribute

    BB: I'm adressing this chapter top-to-bottom, so not sure we
    need to talk about this yet

    Rossen: the rest are mostly editorial

    BB: I've been working on this chapter

    <Rossen>
    [23]https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Chapter_Assess
    ment#Animation_.28Rossen.29

      [23]  
https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Chapter_Assessment#Animation_.28Rossen.29

    Rossen: the reason why the animation chapter had my name next
    to it, happy to give it back to you brian
    ... so for issue 8, add the reference to transform property and
    then deprecate?

    <Rossen> [24]https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/animate.html#issue8

      [24] https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/animate.html#issue8

    BB: just needs to be updated to talk about the transform
    property

    <Rossen>
    [25]https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Chapter_Assess
    ment#Animation_.28Brian.29

      [25]  
https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Chapter_Assessment#Animation_.28Brian.29

    Rossen: ok, I did reflect this in the chapter assessment, and
    assigned Brian the animation chapter

deprecating xlink:href

    BB: there are three questions I have around this
    ... first, animated interfaces
    ... since we're not going ahead with heycam's new dom
    ... if that's the case, then the href IDL attributes point to
    an SVGAnimatedString
    ... and if they're not used much
    ... to replace them with plain domstring

    ED: I landed a patch in blink today for measuring the usage of
    href.baseVal and href.animVal, we'll have to wait a bit for the
    results

    <AmeliaBR> Q: What interface makes xlink:href available as an
    animated string?

    BB: For <image>, <script> we resolved to add the src attribute.
    Does setting the href IDL attribute update src?

    the xlink:href interface is called SVGURIReference

    <birtles>
    [26]https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/types.html#InterfaceSVGURIRefe
    rence

      [26] https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/types.html#InterfaceSVGURIReference

    BB: i updated the definitions there
    ... not sure if you have animations
    ... maybe you should always update href if animating

    <birtles> i.e. even if it explicitly animates
    attributeName="xlink:href" should it just animate "href"
    anyway?

    AmeliaBR: what is the current language for href? which takes
    preference if both src and href specified?

    Rossen: document order?

    BB: what do you mean?

    Rossen: last one overrides

    AmeliaBR: but attributes aren't ordered
    ... parsers don't keep track of the order the attributes are in

    DS: ok, rossen you're right to have a single attr do the same
    thing
    ... but the situation is that svg got it wrong, svg was defined
    in -99, so svg went with consistency with something that didn't
    take off
    ... my opinion: make href an alias for src, and if both present
    src takes precedence
    ... both map to src
    ... we ran into similar problem, barename href vs
    xlink:href.... we decided it should default to href
    ... in this case we're saying href should default to src

    Rossen: any precedent in html?

    DS: don't think so

    Rossen: other question: if we say src is the primary one and
    the href is secondary, how do you deal with invalid values and
    fallback

    DS: src should be authoriative

    Rossen: but we're talkign about tools that sometimes screw up
    content

    BB: barename href vs xlink:href, we should ignore xlink:href if
    we see a barename href

    AmeliaBR: sounds good

    <TabAtkins> I say no fallback. If src is present, it's used,
    regardless of whether it's "wrong" or whatever.

    AmeliaBR: not sure what the original resolution was

    <TabAtkins> Yeah, what BB said.

    AmeliaBR: if we're making <image> to use src that will trigger
    behaviours in older browsers
    ... will be handled as html:img

    <birtles>
    [27]http://www.w3.org/2012/09/19-svg-minutes.html#item05

      [27] http://www.w3.org/2012/09/19-svg-minutes.html#item05

    BB: pasted link to the last discussion we had about this

    AmeliaBR: I think we shouldn't ruin the src fallback "hack"

    <TabAtkins> We're talking *very* old browsers that don't
    understand <svg> at all. It's not a big deal.

    AmeliaBR: if we gave src a meaning in svg it'll break the html
    fallback

    DS: content validation might help a bit

    <AmeliaBR> TabAtkins: 5-6% of web site visits in the US are on
    IE8- or Android 2.3-

    <TabAtkins> Let's encourage them to upgrade. ^_^

    <TabAtkins> (IE team has openly encouraged devs to stop
    developing for IE8.)

    AmeliaBR: for script it's sort of the same between html and svg
    ... the problem is with image

    DS: right, we should do the change (using src) for script but
    not for image

    ED: out of time, let's continue the discussion on the
    mailinglist (or in another call)

    trackbot, end telcon

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: AmeliaBR to clarify the wording around
    stroke-dasharray=0 to say that that means draw the stroke but
    don't dash it [recorded in
    [28]http://www.w3.org/2015/04/16-svg-minutes.html#action01]
    [NEW] ACTION: ed to respond to the TPAC organizers saying SVG
    will meet at TPAC 2015 [recorded in
    [29]http://www.w3.org/2015/04/16-svg-minutes.html#action02]
    [NEW] ACTION: Rossen to merge the embedded content and
    extensibility chapters (removing the ext chapter) [recorded in
    [30]http://www.w3.org/2015/04/16-svg-minutes.html#action03]
    [NEW] ACTION: Rossen to reference CSS' definition of whitespace
    for the S production in the animations chapter (issue 2)
    [recorded in
    [31]http://www.w3.org/2015/04/16-svg-minutes.html#action04]

    [End of minutes]
      __________________________________________________________


     Minutes formatted by David Booth's [32]scribe.perl version
     1.140 ([33]CVS log)
     $Date: 2015/04/16 21:41:13 $
      __________________________________________________________

      [32] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
      [33] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

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Check for newer version at [34]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/
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      [34] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/similarites/similarities/
Found ScribeNick: ed
Inferring Scribes: ed
Default Present: Doug_Schepers, [IPcaller], ed, AmeliaBR, stakagi, Thoma
s_Smailus, birtles, [Microsoft], Tav
Present: Doug_Schepers [IPcaller] ed AmeliaBR stakagi Thomas_Smailus bir
tles [Microsoft] Tav
Agenda: [35]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2015Apr/0010.ht
ml

      [35] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2015Apr/0010.html

WARNING: No meeting chair found!
You should specify the meeting chair like this:
<dbooth> Chair: dbooth

Found Date: 16 Apr 2015
Guessing minutes URL: [36]http://www.w3.org/2015/04/16-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: ameliabr ed rossen

      [36] http://www.w3.org/2015/04/16-svg-minutes.html


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      [37] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm


-- 
Erik Dahlstrom, Web Technology Developer, Opera Software
Co-Chair, W3C SVG Working Group

Received on Friday, 17 April 2015 07:24:04 UTC