W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-svg@w3.org > February 2014

Re: Order and initial value of paint-order property

From: Erik Dahlström <ed@opera.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 14:34:29 +0100
To: www-svg <www-svg@w3.org>, "Dirk Schulze" <dschulze@adobe.com>
Message-ID: <op.xa72nrb5dhsuf5@gnorps>
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 13:09:21 +0100, Dirk Schulze <dschulze@adobe.com>  

> Hi,
> I was looking into implementing the paint-order property in WebKit today  
> and have some questions and change requests[1]:
> 1) Why normal keyword?
> Why is there a normal keyword? Why not make the initial value: fill  
> stroke marker?

Which would be better for future changes (new keywords, or possibly use  
outside of svg)? Would the initial value have to be changed, and what  
effects would that have on content?

To me 'normal' sounds a bit more future proof.

> I know that there are no markers for some elements. It shouldn’t be a  
> problem to specify that in this case no markers are drawn.

The spec already states that the marker properties only apply to 'markable  
elements'. I don't see how 'paint-order' would affect that. In other  
words, I think it is clearly defined. I could add a note about this, but  
it would be repetition.

> I could see that this is problematic if we add another layer later. I am  
> not sure if ‘auto' might make more sense as replacement for ’normal’.

"auto" and "normal" both sound about the same to me, and both keywords are  
used in other CSS properties. I prefer "normal" in this particular case.

> 2) Should we change the painting order by given keywords?
> The behavior for ‘normal’ on a path element is like: fill stroke marker,
> This is counter productive in a way that the order is the opposite to  
> how ‘background', ‘fill' and ‘stroke’ operate on layers. Following these  
> properties would be marker stroke fill. The last specified value gets  
> drawn first.

Personally I find 'background' a bit backwards, "first specified is last  
drawn". But I don't feel strongly about this, either way is fine with me,  
I'll go with whatever the majority thinks is best (most readable).

I do prefer the way it's specified now, "first specified is first drawn"  
(using the painter's algorithm).

> 3) Allow to not draw a layer
> The spec says that an omitted keyword is drawn last (and then in order  
> as if ’normal’ was specified). This doesn’t allow to omit a layer on  
> purpose. I would suggest that the layer that wasn’t specified doesn’t  
> get drawn. This allows specifying stroke, fill and marker and control  
> what gets drawn just with paint-order.

I can see why you would think that way, "paint-order: fill stroke" sounds  
a bit like it wouldn't draw markers.

However, if we allow disabling painting then 'paint-order' is no longer  
just about the order of painting operations. If you don't want  
fill/stroke/marker then you can just set them to "none" in css. I don't  
think we should let 'paint-order' disable painting.

If we add another keyword later on, which would make more sense? Rendering  
as usual taking into account the new keyword, or disabling all the new  

Erik Dahlstrom, Web Technology Developer, Opera Software
Co-Chair, W3C SVG Working Group
Received on Thursday, 13 February 2014 13:35:09 UTC

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