meeting minutes 4/4/2013

Hi,

Here are the meeting minutes of the call today[1]:

Greetings,
Dirk

[1] http://www.w3.org/2013/04/04-svg-minutes.html


   [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                               - DRAFT -

                    SVG Working Group Teleconference

04 Apr 2013

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2013AprJun/0005.html

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2013/04/04-svg-irc

Attendees

   Present
   Regrets
   Chair
          Cameron

   Scribe
          krit

Contents

     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]tecon time
         2. [6]image-rendering property
         3. [7]meeting with IDPF
         4. [8]CSS4 Color and merging SVG Color
     * [9]Summary of Action Items
     __________________________________________________________

   <trackbot> Date: 04 April 2013

   calling in in a moment

   <Tav> yes

   <scribe> scribeNick: krit

tecon time

   heycam: sent a mail with possible options

   Tav: what about switching bi-weekly

   heycam: thought about that

   krit: might be confusing

   heycam: what about 6AM?

   Tav: would work for me

   heycam: it is 9PM PST

   richardschwerdtfeger: well, I am in the middle
   ... would be 12 in the morning

   heycam: should we have 60min instead?

   krit: yes

   heycam: we might tighten up conversation

   shepazu: if we have a frequent time to call in, it is managable

   krit: agree

   heycam: I put up a doodle and we figure it out

image-rendering property

   Tav: we experimented with inscaling and outscaling
   ... I looke in CSS and saw that it has a crisp edges proposal
   ... wich seemed to be a good idea
   ... so if you scale, the pixels are preserved
   ... not filtered and get blurry

   <heycam>
   [10]http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-images/#image-rendering

     [10] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-images/#image-rendering

   Tav: in my email there is a lingk to the draft

   tav reads the proposal

   shepazu: my suggestion SVG should simply do as if the image
   would be in HTML

   krit: image-rendering was implement in SVG already
   ... with the same purpose

   Tav: well, you could choose for quality or speed

   krit: I think this should move to CSS WG
   ... it also does what Tav wants

   Tav: we should say what it means for SVG

   krit: not really

   heycam: ok so we should reference the CSS spec.

   krit: I think CSS should override the SVG defintion and we do
   not reference CSS IMage as long as it is not in a further step

   <ed> typically image-rendering='optimizeSpeed' in svg content
   means "please use nearest-neighbor", and 'optimizeQuality'
   means use something better than nearest-neighbor (typically
   bilinear)

   <ed> not sure if content depends on it, but 'auto' is different

   shepazu: we cold just drop it from SVG2 and let CSS keep it up
   ... if someone wants it, he can use SVG1.1 defintion

   Tav: there should be a notification

   krit: can we put this note in the appendix?

   Tav: it would be one step more for people to get the necessary
   information

   shepazu: what about a compromise where we have a detailed
   appendix and short notes in the spec referencing the Appendix

   heycam: I thought about that as well about all referenced specs

   Tav: I just want to have a short note

   heycam: fine with me

   ed: what about the degault value

   krit: it is still auto

   ed: sure but I want to be able to optimise speed
   ... auto means smoothing, which is undesirable in at least all
   'optimizeSpeed' content I've made

   krit: that is the default anyway

   <ed> crisp-edges would probably be what I'd expect
   optimizeSpeed to be resolved as

   <ed> or perhaps as 'pixelated'

   krit: I think we should move discussion to www-style and argue
   there if there are concerns

   shepazu: optimization may have very different effects even
   between implementations. I think this property does not
   influence existing content a lot
   ... I think we should let the CSS WG deal with it

   heycam: it is worth bringing it up
   ... to inform authors about optimized speed

   krit: I am fine with leaving it now

   heycam: we leave it and add a note that CSS WG is working on
   it. If CSS WG is quicker, we remove it and add a reference to
   it

   <scribe> ACTION: tav to add a note to image-rendering property
   that CSS WG is dealing with a new version of it [recorded in
   [11]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/04-svg-minutes.html#action01]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-3480 - Add a note to image-rendering
   property that CSS WG is dealing with a new version of it [on
   Tavmjong Bah - due 2013-04-11].

   <Tav>
   [12]https://launchpadlibrarian.net/136181479/scaling_test.svg

     [12] https://launchpadlibrarian.net/136181479/scaling_test.svg

   Tav: ther is a nother issue
   ... open the image i posted in the mail and change the zoom

   heycam: that is the bilienar filtering that you see

   Tav: I think it is actually the color spacwe
   ... one that you see is sRGB, the other is linear

   krit: isn't it an implementation issue

   Tav: yes, but all three browsers do that because they use sRGB
   ... And I don't think that this is the right thing to do
   ... in the future when people use GPU it will be easy for themm
   to switch color spaces

   <ed> the svg one is using a <pattern>, is it different if you
   use <image xlink:href="data:image/svg+xml..." />?

   cabanier: it depends more on how you scale. I do not think that
   switching the color space is correct

   shepazu: I don't think that is a SVG issue, but more CSS

   cabanier: I do not think that you change color space on scaling
   ... transforms and color space are different thing

   Tav: if I zoom in the color should not change

   krit: I think this is more an issue of antialiasing, not color
   space

   <shepazu> (is this different for SVG vs HTML? if not, why are
   we talking about it in an SVG telcon, vs discussing it on
   www-style?)

   krit: there would definitely be a visible difference on
   changing color space on scaling and you can not know if you are
   scaling in a motion or not

   cabanier: why specifying it in SVG if you think that is an
   issue in the implementation?

   krit: we should move this to the mailing list and disucss it
   with the CSS WG

   shepazu: I think we should not do our own color stuff, i think
   it should be in CSS

   Tav: If SVG says it is something that we want to do, then we
   should drive it

   shepazu: who is doing the color stuff in SVG

   krit: Chris

   cabanier: but Tab took over on CSS4 Color

   <scribe> ACTION: Tav produce an exmaple, demonstrating how
   different color space interpolation effects image scaling
   [recorded in
   [13]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/04-svg-minutes.html#action02]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-3481 - Produce an exmaple,
   demonstrating how different color space interpolation effects
   image scaling [on Tavmjong Bah - due 2013-04-11].

   Tav: I saw the same issue on filters

   krit: makes sense, but depends on the input

   Tav: are browsers interestef in color interpolation?

   cabanier: yes it is in there
   ... CSS4 Color

   <heycam>
   [14]http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-color/#color-management

     [14] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-color/#color-management

   Tav: that would solve some problems that I see with meshes

   cabanier: this is a property that switches between DeviceRGB
   and sRGB

   krit: yes, that is what we have in WebKit
   ... in SVG we have color-interpoaltion that switches between
   sRGB and linearRGB

   heycam: I think color-interpolation should go to CSS4 Color

   krit: there is just one problem: SVG is sRGB by default.
   Implemeentd is DeviceRGB

   cabanier: don't think CSS changes
   ... that

   krit: I think it does, because it has auto, which is DeviceRGB

   cabanier: oh

   krit: in reality no one implements sRGB but DeviceRGB (all
   browsers and tools)

   heycam: I don' think it says anything about using sRGB by
   default on images

   krit: color-interpolation is not limited to images but effects
   everything

   heycam: you are aying CSS should call it color-interpolation?

   krit: yes, but we would need to add auto and would need to say
   that auto means sRGB
   ... or we say the truth and use DeviceRGB instead
   ... as every implementation does anyway

   <scribe> ACTION: krit to ask CSS WG to use color-interpolation
   instead (as defined in SVG) with the addotion of auto [recorded
   in [15]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/04-svg-minutes.html#action03]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-3482 - Ask CSS WG to use
   color-interpolation instead (as defined in SVG) with the
   addotion of auto [on Dirk Schulze - due 2013-04-11].

   <scribe> ACTION: krit to figure out if we should use sRGB or
   DeviceRGB on SVG [recorded in
   [16]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/04-svg-minutes.html#action04]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-3483 - Figure out if we should use
   sRGB or DeviceRGB on SVG [on Dirk Schulze - due 2013-04-11].

meeting with IDPF

   s/IDPF/IDPF/

   shepazu: I would not be able to go there
   ... IDPF is happeing at Keio Mita campus
   ... 25min appart by train
   ... agenda is about internationalization issues
   ... are any of you interested in this topic?

   heycam: you said that they may have interest in SVG and want
   our opinion about that?

   <richardschwerdtfeger> :-)

   shepazu: I think the focus is on electrical publishing

   richardschwerdtfeger: It is really important in MathML
   ... I'd like to have a open format in documetns
   ... I would like to see them SVG2
   ... which is important in the future
   ... ARIA and other accesibility things

   shepazu: I am not convinced if the timing is right
   ... and especially in the context of this meeting
   ... the focus on internationalizing

   resolve: we meet from monday to wednesday

   shepazu: I will talk with the organizers
   ... another option is to invite them to one of our sessions

   <birtles> by the way, I started adding some details for the
   Tokyo F2F to
   [17]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Tokyo_2013, more
   hotel suggestions etc. to come

     [17] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Tokyo_2013

   <heycam> cool

   shepazu: why not invite some to a telcon

   <scribe> ACTION: shepazu to invite IDPF people to a SVG telcon
   [recorded in
   [18]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/04-svg-minutes.html#action05]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-3484 - Invite IDPF people to a SVG
   telcon [on Doug Schepers - due 2013-04-11].

CSS4 Color and merging SVG Color

   krit: tab sugeested to pick up SVG color things to CSS4 color
   ... ICC color profiles have been in SVG1.1 already. Assuming
   that there are viewers with support for ICC, it is fine to have
   it in SVG2 for now. But LAB is new. For browsers it makes sense
   if it is part of CSS4 Color

   heycam: I am more affraid on relying on future specs in SVG2
   ... so new stuff can go to CSS4 Color
   ... not sure about old studd

   stuff

   <richardschwerdtfeger> dropping

   heycam: they are in SVG2 now, because they were in SVG Color
   1.2
   ... and we decided to merge them again with SVG2
   ... I want to hear ChrisL s opinion first
   ... I was on removing everything which is in CSS3 Color
   ... In the future it makes sense to have everything in CSS
   Color
   ... Are you concerned they don't get implemented in browsers
   and will be removed anyway?

   krit: yes

   heycam: we can around that problem in CR

   <heycam> we could have a new conformance class for "color
   managed implementation"

   krit: I think we should collect data about active SVG viewer
   implementations
   ... I am saying that colors in general should be managed by CSS
   Color

   heycam: I agree, but want Chris's input

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: krit to ask CSS WG to use color-interpolation
   instead (as defined in SVG) with the addotion of auto [recorded
   in [19]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/04-svg-minutes.html#action03]
   [NEW] ACTION: krit to figure out if we should use sRGB or
   DeviceRGB on SVG [recorded in
   [20]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/04-svg-minutes.html#action04]
   [NEW] ACTION: shepazu to invite IDPF people to a SVG telcon
   [recorded in
   [21]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/04-svg-minutes.html#action05]
   [NEW] ACTION: Tav produce an exmaple, demonstrating how
   different color space interpolation effects image scaling
   [recorded in
   [22]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/04-svg-minutes.html#action02]
   [NEW] ACTION: tav to add a note to image-rendering property
   that CSS WG is dealing with a new version of it [recorded in
   [23]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/04-svg-minutes.html#action01]

   [End of minutes]
     __________________________________________________________


    Minutes formatted by David Booth's [24]scribe.perl version
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    $Date: 2013-04-04 22:30:41 $
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Scribe.perl diagnostic output

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You can indicate people for the Present list like this:
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Agenda: [27]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2013AprJun
/0005.html
Found Date: 04 Apr 2013
Guessing minutes URL: [28]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/04-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: krit shepazu tav

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     [28] http://www.w3.org/2013/04/04-svg-minutes.html

WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines.
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Received on Thursday, 4 April 2013 22:32:42 UTC