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minutes, 24 May 2012 SVG WG telcon

From: Nikos Andronikos <Nikos.Andronikos@cisra.canon.com.au>
Date: Thu, 24 May 2012 23:12:31 +0000
To: "www-svg@w3.org" <www-svg@w3.org>
Message-ID: <D6788E6173C4A64B9B42DE1F2EB94EB9BBE1DC84@exm02-wvp.cisra.canon.com.au>
Minutes from today's SVG WG telcon are at


http://www.w3.org/2012/05/24-svg-minutes.html



and below as text.

   [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                               - DRAFT -

                   SVG Working Group Teleconference

24 May 2012

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012AprJun/0053.html

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2012/05/24-svg-irc

Attendees

   Present
          ed, heycam, +1.415.832.aaaa, +33.9.53.77.aabb, krit,
          +61.2.980.5.aacc, nikos, Doug_Schepers

   Regrets
   Chair
          Cameron

   Scribe
          nikos

Contents

     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]Test the web forward event
         2. [6]SVG 2 update
         3. [7]Referencing properties from other specs in SVG 2
         4. [8]Removal of the Media Type Registration chapter from
            SVG 2
         5. [9]Do we still like solidColor?
         6. [10]Naming things going forward (camel case still in
            favour?)
         7. [11]Dropping contentStyleType and contentScriptType
     * [12]Summary of Action Items
     __________________________________________________________

   <trackbot> Date: 24 May 2012

   <heycam> ScribeNick: nikos

Test the web forward event

   <krit> [13]http://testthewebforward.org/

     [13] http://testthewebforward.org/

   CM: Are any SVG group members attending?

   DS: I'll be there

   <heycam> Doug and Dirk will both be there

   CM: focus is on testing, it'd be good to have test repository
   and framework up and running by there

   Tav: frame work is up but repostory isn't there yet
   ... other way around

   krit: which account do you use to commit?

   <heycam> [14]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Svgwg.org

     [14] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Svgwg.org

   CM: svgwg.org account
   ... need to send ssh public key to jwatt or myself to get
   access

   krit: I'm talking about repository for test suite, not spec

   CM: they're on the same machine

   <ed> hg clone ssh://svgwg@svgwg.org/hg/svg2-tests

   CM: might be possible to set it up so that you use different
   accounts

   krit: can we avoid sending public key for tests?
   ... want to make it accessible

   CM: you mean to people outside the wg?

   krit: yes
   ... we should ask css group and others to commit tests

   CM: so anyone from the public could get an account and commit?
   would there be restrictions?

   Tav: it would be like css where you can commit to your own
   area, needs approval to move

   CM: is that done with hooks?
   ... or is it convention?

   krit: no folder besides the approved folder is restricted

   Tav: don't forget we're using the 2 step system, so it's more
   complicated

   CM: in the CSS group do you commit directly to the w2c
   mercurial?

   krit: yes

   Tav: we should re-discuss our test format
   ... we have a format we came up with, new tests should follow
   that format

   krit: can't we just do it like the css wg?

   Tav: how is that?

   <krit> csswg.org

   krit: they have a good wiki

   <krit> [15]http://wiki.csswg.org/test

     [15] http://wiki.csswg.org/test

   krit: in general, I think it would be great if we keep it as
   similar as possible

   Tav: that's the plan

   CM: I think we're half way there, repository is in the right
   structure

   Tav: template is worked out

   krit: only problem is to connect and commit

   CM: I'll look into it
   ... looking a the contribute page, when you had it set up so
   you could commit, what authentication did yo use?

   krit: sign up for wiki, then send email to Peter Lins,

   CM: during this event, is the intention for people to get
   accounts and commit to the repository?

   krit: yes

   <scribe> ACTION: Cameron to look into getting repository
   working for test the web forward [recorded in
   [16]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/24-svg-minutes.html#action01]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-3295 - Look into getting repository
   working for test the web forward [on Cameron McCormack - due
   2012-05-31].

   CM: is it 3 weeks away?

   krit: 15-16 June

SVG 2 update

   CM: what's the latest work that's been done?
   ... reminder that the plan is to publish FPWD in July, 2 months
   away
   ... I've been working on the painting chapter
   ... I see Erik has added buffered rendering

   ED: I was wondering, a couple that I've signed up for require
   changes to the IDL, do we have something that parses web IDL or
   do we need to tweak the script?

   CM: The problem is the IDL parser we're using is old. I'll have
   to update the parser or we'll lose some automation and have to
   write the IDL directly in the chapters
   ... at the moment, we get a lot of formatting done by the
   scripts. I'm not a fan of the formatting, I'd like to change it
   and bring the element definitions up in the chapter, rather
   than at the end
   ... I think we wouldn't lose too much automation if we included
   IDL in the pre elements
   ... manually
   ... in terms of other changes, I've been bringing property
   layouts in line with the css specs

   <heycam>
   [17]https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/painting.html#StrokeShape

     [17] https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/painting.html#StrokeShape

   CM: it's a bit more algorithmic than usual, is that good or
   should we rewrite it a different way?

   krit: the images are done with svg yeh?

   CM: yes
   ... I did it with a dash array
   ... I mentioned on the mailing list, it's probably safe to use
   1.1 features, but not filters or animations

   krit: I'm fine with that

   CM: what I might do is add links to the png renderings of the
   svg

   nikos: we need a script where you can point to an svg and get a
   png

   CM: use common sense and avoid things that we know aren't well
   supported

   krit: can we convert dash array to a path?

   Tav: inkscape can do that

   krit: it would be a good idea for dash array so that it renders
   the same everywhere

   CM: I've been using the coloured backgrounds when I've been
   reworking sections from the 1.1 text
   ... When it's good, I change it to yellow which means its ready
   for SVG WG to review

   krit: It gets turned to white after review?

   CM: when we publish, the group as a whole will sign off on the
   yellow and turn them to white
   ... It will be good if people look through at the yellow
   sections to get an idea whats in there
   ... most of the existing diagrams from the 1.1 spec have a thin
   blue border, I've been removing that and putting in the css
   instead

   krit: I want to make sure equations have metadata

   CM: I'm a bit concerned about the accessibility, the usual
  method with maths is to use 'mathplayer' which is ie only
   ... it would be good to know if there's a better solution

   krit: in general we don't care how it gets displayed, as long
   as it can, in theory, be transformed

   CM: I've used a hidden pre element with the content

   <heycam>
   [18]https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/painting.html#ColorInterpolati
   onProperty

     [18] https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/painting.html#ColorInterpolationProperty

   CM: copy and paste the formula and you'll see the hidden markup
   ... I'm using an aria element
   ... I could have a hidden button that turns off the mathjax
   rendering

   krit: be careful with hidden elements, they're not read or
   displayed

   CM: with the annoations we're adding, should we remove them
   once we add the feature?

   Tav: they have some historic value
   ... the idea is when they're published they're hidden
   ... 10 years from now someone might want to know why it was
   done that way

Referencing properties from other specs in SVG 2

   CM: might not be much to talk about here
   ... in my email

   [19]http://www.w3.org/mid/4FB5A353.3050802@mcc.id.au

     [19] http://www.w3.org/mid/4FB5A353.3050802@mcc.id.au

   CM: in svg 1.1 there's a bunch of css properties that hav ebeen
   redefined
   ... we should reference existing definitions
   ... remove the tables and reference the css spec

   <heycam>
   [20]https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/painting.html#VisibilityContro
   l

     [20] https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/painting.html#VisibilityControl

   CM: I've preserved most of the text, but reworded a little

   Tav: that's good, you've got a short summary of what they do.
   If people want to know the nitty gritty they go to the other
   spec

   CM: I'm not sure about the property links in the text, should
   it go to css?

   nikos: no, should link to same document

   Tav: I agree

   CM: similarly for properties we've moved from svg to specs we
   depend on
   ... one issue with having properties moved out of svg spec is
   that we need to make sure the presentation attributes are
   allowed on all the elements
   ... one of the changes with 2nd edition 1.1 is for every
   element that's styleable is to allow all presentation
   attributes
   ... I think a hook in the main spec that other svg specs can
   link to would be good

   <krit>
   [21]http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-transforms/#svg-transform

     [21] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-transforms/#svg-transform

   krit: See sentence 'This specification will also introduce the
   new present...'

   CM: the last sentence about parsing, I think the svg spec will
   need a couple of definitions like that
   ... other specs will need to specify if they allow extended
   syntax

   <heycam> krit: css3-syntax spec will define syntax for
   presentation attributes

   krit: CSS 3 syntax spec will define syntax for presentation
   attributes

   shepazu: I've been asked to present on SVG at Test the web
   forward. Anyone interested in helping me?

   Tav: I can

   krit: I can do that
   ... I can talk about committing, we can share the presentation
   if you'd like
   ... however you want to organise it

   shepazu: We are looking at an API for querying test results

   krit: That's what shepherd is for

   shepazu: the other thing I want to mention is, the event is
   useful because it's an examination of the idea of the community
   helping with tests. I'd like to crowdsource tests in the future

Removal of the Media Type Registration chapter from SVG 2

   CM: I thought that because we have the media type registered
   now that we don't need the chapter
   ... I asked Chris
   ... He thinks we don't
   ... unless there are objections, I'll remove it
   ... it existed in the spec so the registry could point to
   something
   ... the media type won't mean anything difference between SVG 1
   and SVG 2. not neccessary to resubmit

   shepazu: It occurred to me that if we're aligning more closely
   with HTML, would it be useful to have another mime type for non
   XML SVG?
   ... A non XML SVG might be someone using SVG in HTML where they
   aren't quoting attributes, the HTML parser doesn't care.
   ... anything to do with HTML parsing can't be called XML

   CM: I think there was interest in using an error correcting
   parser for XML
   ... maybe a community group started up

   <heycam> [22]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-er/

     [22] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-er/

   CM: not much activity since February

Do we still like solidColor?

   CM: solidColour is something we've resolved to have in SVG 2
   but I don't like it
   ... one of the reasons is that it's not that hard to have the
   same effect with the current elements

   krit: even with changed behaviour?

   tav: how would you do it in another way?

   CM: until CSS variables are available use a single stop
   gradient
   ... slightly ugly but you don't have to put all the gradient
   attributes there

   Tav: It would be so much simpler to have solid color
   ... suppose you have a drawing with the same colour but in 16
   different places, it would be problematic

  krit: you have a prsentation attribute and change it in one
   place

   CM: my concern is that once variables is implemented everywhere
   people would prefer to use it over solidColor and then we'd
   have multiple ways of doing it, which I'd like to avoid
   ... I'm thinking from an authoring point of view
   ... If there's interest in keeping it I won't block it
   ... The reason I started thinking about it is because I was
   wondering what our plan in general is in regard to naming of
   attributes and elements
   ... whether we keep camel case
   ... for each camel case name we introduce, we need to update
   the implementations

Naming things going forward (camel case still in favour?)

   [No strong opinions given on solidColour]

   CM: Because of how the HTML parser works, elements and
   attributes are either lower case or case insensitive. There's a
   fix to transform to camel case for SVG.
   ... if we introduce new attributes with camel case, the
   implementations need updating

   krit: I think that's fixed in DOM 4
   ... don't have to think about it from a spec point of view

   CM: don't think so. if it's not registered it will become all
   lower case, and the DOM is case sensitive
   ... is it actually a problem to update the parser when adding
   the implementation for the new attribute?

   Tav: camel case is painful. I wonder if adding lower case
   versions of the attributes that have camel case would be the
   way forward?

   krit: what if you want one that's all uppercase?

   shepazu: you wouldn't want to
   ... in HTML it doesn't matter
   ... for XML parsing, case does matter
   ... for HTML, it's case sensitive, but when it's parsed it's
   all lower case, so the DOM is all lowercase.
   ... if we made all lower case versions of the tokens, HTML, SVG
   and XML could be valid
   ... I know it's doubling the number of elements in the
   namespace, but the benefit would be an SVG that you could use
   case insensitively or lower case and it's all consistent

   CM: in HTML parsing, if you put lower case and it becomes mixed
   case in the DOM, it's confusing

   shepazu: I've seen lots of problems with viewBox
   ... I don't think Chris would like this
   ... but if others think there's merit we should consider it

   CM: At the moment, what do we do with new things? Keep the
   existing scheme until we make a decision?
   ... I'm drawn to consistency

   shepazu: with what? HTML or SVG?

   CM: It's not just what people know, but what the other things
   in the same SVG fragment look like\

   Tav: I agree

   CM: it's the same sort of issue with CSS property values
   ... they use dash separated names if anything

   shepazu: I think we should be consistent with HTML rather than
   CSS

   CM: you could introduce a dashed version of camel case
   properties

   <shepazu> sI think we should be consistent with HTML and CSS
   rather than SVG 1.1/I think we should be consistent with HTML
   and CSS rather than SVG 1.1/

   shepazu: I used to think that consistency with SVG was more
   important, but now I find some of our conventions get in the
   way

   CM: If we convert everything to the one true convention, then
   at that point we can decide how to name new things
   ... I don't want to be in the situation where we have a mix
   ... not something we need to decide now, but we should consider
   it in future
   ... the near future

Dropping contentStyleType and contentScriptType

   CM: In SVG 1, these attributes are designed to specify the
   language used in the style and event attributes
   ... SVG 1 spec says they're deprecated, should we remove them?

   shepazu: I think we can remove them

   ED: I agree

   shepazu: I think any solution (if necessary) will be mutual
   between SVG and HTML

   CM: These started as HTTP headers, then became attributes in
   HTML
   ... they don't exist in HTML 5
   ... I understand the point that normally they're not used but
   because they are for extensibility they might be used privately
   ... Private use doesn't need something in the spec

   shepazu: I've used them
   ... you could do something weird with script that you can't do
   with regular javascript

   CM: Anybody against removing them?

   Resolution: Remove contentStyleType and contentScriptType

   <heycam> ACTION: cameron to investigate having a hidden button
   to turn mathjax rendering off [recorded in
   [23]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/24-svg-minutes.html#action02]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-3296 - Investigate having a hidden
   button to turn mathjax rendering off [on Cameron McCormack -
   due 2012-05-31].

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: cameron to investigate having a hidden button to
   turn mathjax rendering off [recorded in
   [24]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/24-svg-minutes.html#action02]
   [NEW] ACTION: Cameron to look into getting repository working
   for test the web forward [recorded in
   [25]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/24-svg-minutes.html#action01]

   [End of minutes]
     __________________________________________________________


    Minutes formatted by David Booth's [26]scribe.perl version
    1.136 ( [27]CVS log)
    $Date: 2012/05/24 23:05:51 $
     __________________________________________________________

     [26] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
     [27] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

   [Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.136  of Date: 2011/05/12 12:01:43
Check for newer version at
[28]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

     [28] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/uuse/use/
Succeeded: s/Tav/shepazu/
Succeeded: s/event/even/
Succeeded: s/shepazu/tav/
Succeeded: s/colour/color/
Succeeded: s/chaneg/change/
Succeeded: s/Tav/shepazu/
Succeeded: s/Tav/shepazu/
Succeeded: s/I think we should be consistent with HTML rather than CSS/
I think we should be consistent with HTML and CSS rather than SVG 1.1/
Succeeded: s/the solution/any solution (if necessary)/
Found ScribeNick: nikos
Inferring Scribes: nikos
Default Present: ed, heycam, +1.415.832.aaaa, +33.9.53.77.aabb, krit, +
61.2.980.5.aacc, nikos, Doug_Schepers
Present: ed heycam +1.415.832.aaaa +33.9.53.77.aabb krit +61.2.980.5.aa
cc nikos Doug_Schepers
Agenda:
[29]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012AprJun/0053.h
tml
Found Date: 24 May 2012
Guessing minutes URL:
[30]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/24-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: cameron

     [29] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012AprJun/0053.html
     [30] http://www.w3.org/2012/05/24-svg-minutes.html


   End of [31]scribe.perl diagnostic output]

     [31] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm


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