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minutes, 21 June 2012 SVG WG telcon

From: Nikos Andronikos <nikos.andronikos@cisra.canon.com.au>
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 08:14:54 +1000
Message-ID: <4FE39CDE.5000100@cisra.canon.com.au>
To: <www-svg@w3.org>
Minutes from today's SVG WG telcon are at

  http://www.w3.org/2012/06/21-svg-minutes.html

  and below as text.

    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                     SVG Working Group Teleconference

21 Jun 2012

    [2]Agenda

       [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012AprJun/0097.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2012/06/21-svg-irc

Attendees

    Present
    Regrets
           heycam, chris

    Chair
           SV_MEETING_CHAIR

    Scribe
           nikos

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]Report from Test the Web Forward
          2. [6]SVG inline elements replaced elements? display:
             inline
          3. [7]FX: short hand for filter effects
          4. [8]Update on status of and plans for non-SVG2 specs
          5. [9]HTML5 video and SVG graphics synchronisation
          6. [10]Open issues/actions
      * [11]Summary of Action Items
      __________________________________________________________

    <trackbot> Date: 21 June 2012

    <scribe> scribenick: nikos

Report from Test the Web Forward

    krit: I have a blog post about it

    <krit>
    [12]http://blogs.adobe.com/webplatform/2012/06/20/test-the-web-
    forward-weekend/

      [12] http://blogs.adobe.com/webplatform/2012/06/20/test-the-web-forward-weekend/

    krit: I think it was a great event. Lots of people were
    interested and wrote tests for SVG.

    shepazu: I thought it was good that Adobe is helping to push
    testing this way
    ... I made a new methodology for testing transforms

    <shepazu>
    [13]http://schepers.cc/svg/tests/test-transforms-rotate.svg

      [13] http://schepers.cc/svg/tests/test-transforms-rotate.svg

    Cyril: I looked at the test, it just shows green on pass

    shepazu: That's the idea
    ... what I did is programatically create 360 rectangles that
    are all red
    ... removed transforms and converted to paths in InkScape
    ... then put the resulting shape back into the test on a green
    background
    ... then included original transforms and to get rid of
    aliasing I added a 3 pixel green stroke
    ... the result - all you see is green
    ... we can use this for SVG and CSS transforms
    ... you may have artifacts if you use pngs

    Cyril: fonts may cause problems when converted to paths

    shepazu: I gave a presentation at TTWF - there were about 50-60
    people
    ... first day was food and methodologies
    ... second day was presentations on how you make tests and
    share them, etc
    ... the rest was people writing tests. During the day, Adobe
    raffled prizes
    ... people were there, on a nice day so that says something
    about how Adobe hosted
    ... about 100 tests were submitted
    ... Alan Stearns, Peter Linss, fantasai and some others
    presented
    ... Thanks to Adobe. It was a great event. Good work Dirk on
    creating my slides.

    ed: Do we have any svg tests to approve?

    shepazu: Ryosuke Niwa from Google made a number of tests
    ... They were created by krit, I did modify them by hand
    ... There's a markup syntax you can use and then generate
    html+css slides

    krit: There's no wysiwyg tool though

SVG inline elements replaced elements? display: inline

    krit: We have created some tests with inline SVG and we were
    wondering where we define how the SVG element contributes to
    HTML
    ... Is it specified already?
    ... Our test showed us that the default is inline
    ... all browsers do the same, the question is whether it is
    specified?

    ed: What have you checked in the spec so far?

    krit: I searched in the HTML5 and a bit in the SVG spec and I
    couldn't find anything

    Tav: I think it should be in the SVG integration spec

    shepazu: I am the editor of the SVG integration spec. We
    resolved to publish it long ago but I'm not sure about the
    direction of it
    ... the problem is that we were wanting to have a definitive
    list of all attributes in a table and the script for generating
    it was screwed up. I was waiting on a fix.
    ... there's also a lot of comments on the spec that we need to
    integrate

    Tav: I think it's an important spec

    shepazu: Yeh I think it's important, so if we can get that
    script working, then I'm happy to publish whenever
    ... Anthony was working on it

    ed: CDF working group never got around to defining the
    SVG-inline-in-html case
    ... I don't think it has anything defining how inline SVG and
    HTML works

    shepazu: SVG integration draws from some ideas from CDF, so I
    think that's the right place to put it

    krit: I wouldn't be opposed

    ed: I agree
    ... It's nice that all the viewers do the same thing even
    though it isn't defined. A lot of content would break if it
    wasn't like that

    shepazu: SVG integration lists all attributes and properties
    and where they are defined
    ... that wouldn't be appropriate for SVG 2 spec
    ... we could put it in SVG 2 if we want

    Resolution: SVG inline in html case will be defined in SVG 2

    <scribe> ACTION: shepazu will include SVG inline in html case
    in SVG 2 [recorded in
    [14]http://www.w3.org/2012/06/21-svg-minutes.html#action01]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3310 - Will include SVG inline in
    html case in SVG 2 [on Doug Schepers - due 2012-06-28].

FX: short hand for filter effects

    krit: At the moment we have filter effects without a dash and
    both capitalised
    ... CSS and SVG don't use capitalised words
    ... I propose we use filter-effects without capitals

    ed: Ok with me

    Resolution: Filter effects shorthand will be filter-effects

    ed: Dirk you are going to be come co-editor of that spec?

    krit: Not 100% sure yet

    <scribe> ACTION: krit change filter effects shorthand to
    filter-effects [recorded in
    [15]http://www.w3.org/2012/06/21-svg-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - krit

    <krit> dschulze

    <scribe> ACTION: dschulze change filter effects shorthand to
    filter-effects [recorded in
    [16]http://www.w3.org/2012/06/21-svg-minutes.html#action03]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3311 - Change filter effects
    shorthand to filter-effects [on Dirk Schulze - due 2012-06-28].

Update on status of and plans for non-SVG2 specs

    <ed>
    [17]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012AprJu
    n/0097.html

      [17] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012AprJun/0097.html

    nikos: Compositing and blending has been reviewed by krit, FPWD
    not far off. I'm not sure how long each step takes so it's hard
    to update the table

    krit: When you think it's ready you can get resolution from
    FXTF

    Tav: How many months do you normally allow per step?

    shepazu: That varies FPWD - LC could be 2 years it could be
    less
    ... LC to CR 6-8 weeks is reasonablye but you'll probably have
    more than 1 LC
    ... so probably 4 months
    ... Technically you don't need to go into CR, if you have tests
    that are passed by implementations you can have 0 day CR
    ... more typically is a few months or 6 months
    ... depends on implementations and tests
    ... After CR comes proposed reccomendation which is 6 weeks
    ... sort of a watch state
    ... maybe 4 weeks
    ... then comes REC. W3C specs are good for 10 years and then
    they are removed

    ed: I think one of the things Cameron wanted figured out was
    for the specs that no one is doing edits on

    krit: Any particular spec?

    ed: SVG accessibility for example
    ... do we have anything on that?

    shepazu: Not really, I have some notes and little things
    ... A member has expressed interest in joining to explicitly
    work on SVG accessibility

    ed: Do the estimates look ok then?
    ... does it make sense to list an estimate with no one working
    on it?

    Tav: leave it blank

    shepazu: We could put those in a separate list. Timeline is
    pending securing an editor
    ... we should give as much info as we have

    ed: Another one that was asked about was masking and clipping

    shepazu: Did we decide not to do that one?

    ed: I think so. From what I remember we talked about using the
    compositing instead

    krit: I thought Ed O'Conner and Vincent wanted to work on a
    masking spec
    ... I'll check

    nikos: There's an open action on Anthony Grasso to fold
    clipping and masking spec into compositing module
    ... from 2008

    ed: what about SVG Parameters?

    shepazu: People are working on that. I'd like to devote a
    telcon on it sometime

    ed: the estimates are ok then?

    shepazu: For now. you guys change the timelines as you think
    ... First we need to look at first draft, then the api and
    syntax
    ... maybe I could make a public call to find out what syntax
    people want
    ... it might be able to be defined in terms of CSS variables
    ... I'd have to talk to Tab about that
    ... maybe he could join a call

    ed: SVG Integration. What's holding that back?

    shepazu: attributes table
    ... I think Cameron might be the natural person to do that
    ... he's managing the build system

    nikos: do we know the status of the script?

    shepazu: Can we put this on the agenda for next week?

    ed: Color Management? Chris is not here, he was the one doing
    that spec
    ... He posted to the list. There is work going on that one
    ... Tiling and Layering?

    birtles: I've been in discussion with Takagi-san. He's working
    on it and will integrate some of the features into SVG 2
    proper. I need to go through the stuff he's sent me. He's still
    active on it.
    ... He's saying that mapping is becoming more central to the
    web. especially with mobile. With Apple pushing their mapping
    he wants to push for a standard.

    ed: Vector Effects?

    shepazu: I see Chris plans to prioritise work on SVG 2 over
    that until SVG 2 is further along

    ed: We already have resolutions to add minor pieces from it
    into SVG 2
    ... so we're just waiting for someone to take up SVG
    accessibility

    birtles: I'd like to add animations onto that list

    <birtles> Web Animations spec:
    [18]https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/web-anim/index.htm
    l

      [18] https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/web-anim/index.html

    <ed> s/minor pieces from it/minor pieces from it (such as
    non-scaling-stroke and fill/stroke-order)/

    ed: so how close is the web animations spec from FPWD?

    birtles: The initial goal is to have it more or less complete
    by SVG open (September)

    krit: Do we need reviews on it before FPWD?

    birtles: I suppose we do. I'm not familiar with the normal
    process.

    ed: I guess the review before publishing FPWD is up to the
    working groups
    ... if not everyone agrees on a resolution to publish FPWD it
    will need more work

    birtles: We'd like to have something ready to be reviewed by
    mid to late September

    ed: So brian do you want to add it to the table/

    birtles: yep

    [19]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Roadmap#Timeline

      [19] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Roadmap#Timeline

HTML5 video and SVG graphics synchronisation

    Cyril: It's a follow up of something I was working on before my
    trip to Australia

    <Cyril>
    [20]http://concolato.wp.mines-telecom.fr/2012/06/18/html-5-vide
    o-and-svg-graphics-synchronization/

      [20] http://concolato.wp.mines-telecom.fr/2012/06/18/html-5-video-and-svg-graphics-synchronization/

    Cyril: I was working on a way to display SVG graphics on video
    in a browser
    ... I made some experiments
    ... Basically I put SVG content in a web vtt file
    ... I've tested with all browsers and it doesn't work at the
    moment
    ... I don't think it's a proper solution
    ... I tried a different approach using Canvas. I have a HTML5
    video and I monitor the time events
    ... I wasn't really succesful with this solution either
    ... time and date event isn't precise
    ... last attempt was displaying an SVG animation on top of the
    video. It works quite well.
    ... it works very well for stepping through the video frame by
    frame
    ... as did canvas
    ... but when you play it real speed it plays almost properly
    ... the thing that bothers me is, I used the seek features, I
    couldn't control the timeline
    ... my reccommendation is if people thing it's an interesting
    use case we should enable HTML 5 media group on SVG element
    ... if two elements share the same value for media group then
    they are synchronised by the browser
    ... you wouldn't have to do anything
    ... another element is to allow the svg element inside the
    track element of HTML

    birtles: We've looked at it as part of web animations. it's
    difficult.

    Cyril: so far from my tests it seems to work only on Chrome
    ... I think if we want synchronised video and graphics with
    frame accuracy we don't want to do it with script
    ... the browser controls the timeline so telling the browser
    the timeline should follow the video is the way to go

    birtles: I agree. We talked about a number of options when
    Alex, Shane and Rik came to Tokyo
    ... the main difficulty is integrating with HTML's media
    element interfaces
    ... I think it's something we want in web animations and I
    think that's the right place for it.

    Cyril: I'm not sure if it's a question of animation. It seems
    to be more a question of integration

    birtles: The use case could be video and text or video and svg
    as you mentioned

    Cyril: Do you have documentation - minutes or anything?

    birtles: not much. We did talk about having a third time
    container which is a synchronised time container specifically
    to line up with HTML media groups

    Cyril: Maybe we can discuss at the F2F in July

    <birtles> there are a few notes here:
    [21]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/fx/wiki/Web_Animations/Meetings/
    Tokyo_F2F_Day_1 (but I think we later reversed a lot of those
    decisions :) )

      [21] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/fx/wiki/Web_Animations/Meetings/Tokyo_F2F_Day_1

    <ed> [22]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues

      [22] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues

Open issues/actions

    ed: Not all issues have an assigned product

    <ed> [23]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/open

      [23] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/open

    ed: Same story with the actions

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: dschulze change filter effects shorthand to
    filter-effects [recorded in
    [24]http://www.w3.org/2012/06/21-svg-minutes.html#action03]
    [NEW] ACTION: krit change filter effects shorthand to
    filter-effects [recorded in
    [25]http://www.w3.org/2012/06/21-svg-minutes.html#action02]
    [NEW] ACTION: shepazu will include SVG inline in html case in
    SVG 2 [recorded in
    [26]http://www.w3.org/2012/06/21-svg-minutes.html#action01]

    [End of minutes]
      __________________________________________________________


     Minutes formatted by David Booth's [27]scribe.perl version
     1.136 ( [28]CVS log)
     $Date: 2012/06/21 22:10:50 $
      __________________________________________________________

      [27] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
      [28] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

    [Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.136  of Date: 2011/05/12 12:01:43
Check for newer version at
[29]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

      [29] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/[missed name]/Ryosuke Niwa/
Succeeded: s/HMLT/HTML/
Succeeded: s/CDS/CDF/
Succeeded: s/SVG case/SVG-inline-in-html case/
WARNING: Bad s/// command: s/minor pieces from it/minor pieces from it
(such as non-scaling-stroke and fill/stroke-order)/
Found ScribeNick: nikos
Inferring Scribes: nikos

WARNING: No "Present: ... " found!
Possibly Present: Cyril Doug_Schepers P0 P11 Tav aaaa aabb aacc aadd bi
rtles ed jet joined krit nikos scribenick shepazu svg trackbot
You can indicate people for the Present list like this:
         <dbooth> Present: dbooth jonathan mary
         <dbooth> Present+ amy

Regrets: heycam chris
Agenda:
[30]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012AprJun/0097.h
tml

      [30] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012AprJun/0097.html

WARNING: No meeting chair found!
You should specify the meeting chair like this:
<dbooth> Chair: dbooth

Found Date: 21 Jun 2012
Guessing minutes URL:
[31]http://www.w3.org/2012/06/21-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: change dschulze effects filter krit shepazu s
horthand

      [31] http://www.w3.org/2012/06/21-svg-minutes.html


    End of [32]scribe.perl diagnostic output]

      [32] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm

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