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Minutes August 16, 2012 SVG WG Telcon

From: Nikos Andronikos <nikos.andronikos@cisra.canon.com.au>
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 07:48:31 +1000
Message-ID: <502D6AAF.7050300@cisra.canon.com.au>
To: <www-svg@w3.org>
Minutes:

        http://www.w3.org/2012/08/16-svg-minutes.html

  and as text:


    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                     SVG Working Group Teleconference

16 Aug 2012

    [2]Agenda

       [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JulSep/0096.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2012/08/16-svg-irc

Attendees

    Present
           Brian, Leroux

    Regrets
    Chair
           Cameron

    Scribe
           nikos

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]Publication of FPWD of SVG 2
          2. [6]Sizing of SVG and HTML
          3. [7]Filter Effects - clipping of subreagions
          4. [8]Filter Effects - dx and dy with
             primitiveUnits="objectBoundingBox"
          5. [9]CSS Masking
      * [10]Summary of Action Items
      __________________________________________________________

    <trackbot> Date: 16 August 2012

    <pdr> Hi, I am [Google].

    <heycam>
    [11]https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/19480/SVGLucerne2012/results

      [11] https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/19480/SVGLucerne2012/results

    <scribe> scribenick: nikos

    heycam: first we'll have an introduction from Rich

    richardschwerdtfe: I'm involved in a number of w3 efforts on
    accessibility
    ... I work for IBM. CTO for accessibility in software
    ... what I'm interested in svg2 is having it as accessible as
    possible for the svg2 release
    ... next week Ican go through the gap analysis we did if yo
    ulike
    ... i'll send a doc for review before then

    heycam: We have a F2F coming up, might be a bit soon for you to
    attend

    richardschwerdtfe: I probably won't be able to make it
    ... I have one question - in terms of accessibility work, are
    you looking for content changes?

    heycam: generally we have people pitching into the documents
    that they can
    ... Tav and I probably do the most editorial work

    richardschwerdtfe: I'm happy to pitch in then

Publication of FPWD of SVG 2

    heycam: This is a reminder that we're scheduled to publish
    Tuesday next week
    ... I'm going to do clean ups this morning and then send off
    request to the webmaster
    ... so if you have any changes (that aren't controversial) get
    them in now

Sizing of SVG and HTML

    pdr: Hi, I'm from Google on the Chrome team
    ... I'm implementing the sizing stuff, where you have image
    with svg in it

    <heycam>
    [12]https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gDnYxvqIMPjs4TThwc5N0Jc
    6qgIKlrgPaYJglsvrjtI/edit?pli=1

      [12] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gDnYxvqIMPjs4TThwc5N0Jc6qgIKlrgPaYJglsvrjtI/edit?pli=1

    pdr: what I can tell, this is really underspecified in the spec
    - all browsers are different
    ... I thnk Firefox is the best implementation
    ... I was wondering if we could clean up the spec and converge
    on their approach

    <pdr>
    [13]https://docs.google.com/a/chromium.org/document/d/1gDnYxvqI
    MPjs4TThwc5N0Jc6qgIKlrgPaYJglsvrjtI/edit?pli=1

      [13] https://docs.google.com/a/chromium.org/document/d/1gDnYxvqIMPjs4TThwc5N0Jc6qgIKlrgPaYJglsvrjtI/edit?pli=1

    pdr: I listed the various permutations of svg file
    ... you can click on the bottom and I have a list of results -
    you can see how they differ

    heycam: I was wondering if you could summarise the behaviour of
    FF

    pdr: for the basic things - all are right
    ... differences when you hav ean image with a width and an svg
    width property and they differ (attribute or property)
    ... if you look at the table in my doc
    ... last 2 rows are an example of this

    heycam: Am I right that the svg width property doesn't seem to
    be doing anything

    pdr: that's right. that's the path mozilla took and it's as
    good as any

    krit: svg in image tag?

    pdr: that's the first table
    ... second is inline svg
    ... my request for the WG is to clean this stuff up

    heycam: this has been an open issue for a while and we are keen
    to fix it up

    pdr: would you like someone to write it up?
    ... I have a test suite that matches mozilla behaviour - we
    could spec it from that

    krit: regarding embedding svg image inline - do we want to
    differ between width attribute and property in future, when we
    move to presentation attribute?
    ... Canvas is a bit different than SVG
    ... Canvas has resolution

    Tav: The equivalent in SVG is the viewport size

    krit: for inner svg element, would there still be separate
    width attribute and property?

    heycam: currently the width property on inner svg element
    doen'st do anything?

    all: right

    krit: I'd like to specify something that is common for all
    browsers

    shepazu: pdr, can you write the specification from the data you
    have?

    heycam: If you could write up the rules from the sizing, that
    would be helpful

    pdr: ok

    shepazu: we talked about adding the viewbox value auto, which
    automatically sets the viewbox to the bounding box of the
    containing shapes

    pdr: how would you like me to do this?
    ... email results to www-svg?

    all: yes

    heycam: we'll wait for a resolution until you write up the
    rules
    ... is everyone ok that we move forward?

    shepazu: I think the general approach is fine, it's a good way
    forward

    Resolution: Address the question of SVG sizing

Filter Effects - clipping of subreagions

    krit: I can summarise.
    ... we have an issue in the filter effects spec where we might
    mwant to specify a keyword or property that allows the author
    to clip the input or output or nothing
    ... since we haven't decided if we want just input or output
    I'd like to delay this
    ... it would be good to get Erik's input
    ... we discussed this last week and resolved to ask Erik about
    it

Filter Effects - dx and dy with primitiveUnits="objectBoundingBox"

    <krit>
    [14]https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/filters/index.html
    #feOffsetElement

      [14] https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/filters/index.html#feOffsetElement

    krit: I just realised that dx and dy take numbers and
    percentages
    ... some browsers support percentages

    heycam: is it useful to support percentages?

    krit: I would expect that percentage is relative to either
    viewport or object depending on primitiveUnits
    ... I think it's ok to have numbers that act as percentages
    ... I think we shouldn't chane the specification

    heycam: if we have percentages it might seem like we can take
    arbitrary lengths as well
    ... percentages are separate from lengths in css?

    krit: yes

    heycam: I'm looking at other things that take 0-1 number values
    ... the new filter shorthand property value takes number as
    well as percentage
    ... I'm wondering if there's an expectation that values that
    take 0-1 are a ratio

    krit: if you put 0.5 with primitiveUnits="objectBoundingBox" it
    means 50%
    ... with the other value of primiteUnits it means 0.5 * the
    unit

    heycam: I think it would be good to get Erik's input - are you
    happy to talk about it when he's back?

    krit: yep

CSS Masking

    krit: I want to summarise

    <krit>
    [15]http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/masking/index.html

      [15] http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/masking/index.html

    krit: I brought up a short first draft
    ... it specifies what webkit is doing with css msaking as well
    as waht firefox is doing with svg masking
    ... mask-repeat, etc are all shorthand for the webkit
    properties
    ... I think they can apply to svg in the same way
    ... the css wg isn't in favour of using all these properties
    ... not all these properties make sense for svg
    ... such as mask-attachment, clip and origin
    ... I think we could remove these for svg
    ... so far no one in css has objected to clip-paths

    heycam: all those mask properties - they are things that webkit
    currently supports for html content?

    krit: mask-attachment doesn't do anything in webkit, mask-type
    you can select between luminance and alpha masks
    ... the editorship of the specification, I'd like to delay to
    next css meeting, to see if they reject completely or decide to
    go on
    ... they are worried that they have too many specifications on
    the go

    heycam: you were going to look at whether you could supply
    resources for editing the spec weren't you?

    krit: it depends on css wg, whether they reinvent the wheel or
    not. It may be too much work
    ... if it's just removing properties and changing behaviour of
    properties then it's ok

    heycam: I think it would be a bit silly to do everything from
    scratch
    ... currently clip-path stuff is in the spec

    krit: no one from css objected to it yet

    heycam: maybe because they haven't thought about it properly
    yet
    ... it would be good for us to review it also

    krit: there are some descriptions missing, but the general
    intent of the spec sould be clear
    ... css wg is looking at aligning mask feature with specific
    part of element, i.e just mask border or just content

    heycam: that seems similar to shaders, with filters applying to
    different parts

    krit: it might apply to svg elements once we support vector
    effects, i.e. i just want to have mask on stroke or fill

    heycam: even without full vector effects we could support that

    krit: dont know if we will fit this in svg 2

    heycam: if the css wg doesn't want to take it on, what will be
    the way forward?

    krit: I think it's reasonable to define what webkit already
    does

    heycam: Brian said he probably doesn't have time to be a full
    editor

    krit: css wg meet is in 2 weeks so we'll see what they say

    heycam: for the moment the masking chapter is in the svg 2 spec
    - it's probably a bit early to point to the new document
    ... I think the direction is good though
    ... I might agree with comments about proliferation of the
    background style property and whether we can cut some out
    ... just a reminder to register for the F2F

    <heycam>
    [16]https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/19480/SVGLucerne2012/

      [16] https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/19480/SVGLucerne2012/

    krit: just one more thing - css wg has decided to publish draft
    of filter effects

    heycam: I noticed css working group resolved to include
    scientific notation
    ... there was some opposition but it got through

Summary of Action Items

    [End of minutes]
      __________________________________________________________


     Minutes formatted by David Booth's [17]scribe.perl version
     1.136 ([18]CVS log)
     $Date: 2012/08/16 21:45:55 $
      __________________________________________________________

      [17] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
      [18] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/krit svg in image tag?/krit: svg in image tag?/
Succeeded: s/thta/that/
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Found ScribeNick: nikos
Inferring Scribes: nikos
Present: Brian Leroux

WARNING: Fewer than 3 people found for Present list!

Agenda: [20]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JulSep
/0096.html
Found Date: 16 Aug 2012
Guessing minutes URL: [21]http://www.w3.org/2012/08/16-svg-minutes.html
People with action items:

      [20] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JulSep/0096.html
      [21] http://www.w3.org/2012/08/16-svg-minutes.html


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