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Minutes, 16 March 2011 SVG WG telcon

From: Anthony Grasso <Anthony.Grasso@cisra.canon.com.au>
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 20:06:48 +0000
To: W3C SVG WG Public List <public-svg-wg@w3.org>
Message-ID: <923A4276C1903646BE5299CA8462B0A0174AB4F4@exm01-wvp.cisra.canon.com.au>
http://www.w3.org/2011/03/16-svg-minutes.html


---


   [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/


                               - DRAFT -

                   SVG Working Group Teleconference

16 Mar 2011

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JanMar/0250.html


   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2011/03/16-svg-irc


Attendees

   Present
          [IPcaller], ed, heycam, +39.524.9.aaaa, ChrisL, anthony,
          +39.537.7.aabb, tav, [Microsoft]

   Regrets
   Chair
          Cameron

   Scribe
          anthony

Contents

     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]Telcon Time
         2. [6]SVG Full 1.1 2nd Edition
         3. [7]Compositing Publication
         4. [8]Order of Transform and motion animation application
         5. [9]Discrete Animation Fix
         6. [10]CSS Animations
     * [11]Summary of Action Items
     _________________________________________________________

   <trackbot> Date: 16 March 2011

   <ChrisL> [12]http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-SVGCompositing-20110315/


     [12] http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-SVGCompositing-20110315/


   <scribe> Scribe: anthony

   <scribe> Scribenick: anthony

Telcon Time

   <heycam>
   [13]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-svg-wg/2011JanMar/0028.h

   tml

     [13] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-svg-wg/2011JanMar/0028.html


   CM: US have already moved to daylight saving time
   ... Europe is moving soon
   ... AUS and NZ change on the 6th April
   ... we should see what time is suitable for everyone once those
   changes have been made

   CL: What time will the call be once the changes have been made?

   CM: In AUS and NZ it will be 4:30am
   ... In the email there you can see what the times will be after
   April 6th if the time doesn't change
   ... I'm assuming the current time is not suitable
   ... We should see if we can shift the time by a few hours

   CL: I have a call after this one which is the WOFF call
   ... so I will have a conflict
   ... this call is 8:30 - 10:00 then WOFF is 10:00 - 11:00

   <ChrisL> (all the above times pm)

   CL: so a call after WOFF would be late for me

   TB: After 11:00PM would be too late for me as well

   CM: I propose we keep this current time leading up to April 6th. So
   on March 30th when Europe changes
   ... they will go back to the original telecon time

   <heycam>
   [14]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Full_11#Remaining_work_fo

   r_SVG1.1F2

     [14] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Full_11#Remaining_work_for_SVG1.1F2


   AG: Once we decide on a new telcon time it will kick in once we've
   all changed to our respective daylight savings times?

   CM: Yes

SVG Full 1.1 2nd Edition

   CM: I've updated that page
   ... We haven't had any progress on these things since the F2F
   ... just wanted to make sure everyone is on the same page about
   things left to do

   CL: Sorry haven't finished my Action I need to do
   ... regarding ACTION-2910

   CM: That's for the spec text

   <heycam>
   [15]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/status/implementation_

   matrix.html

     [15] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/status/implementation_matrix.html


   CM: and for the test suite

   CL: There is one test that it has a problem converting
   ... I'm not sure how to convert that in FontForge
   ... I'll ask someone in the Fonts Working Group on how it's done

   <heycam>
   [16]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/harness/htmlObjectMini

   Approved/fonts-desc-04-t.html

     [16] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/harness/htmlObjectMiniApproved/fonts-desc-04-t.html


   CM: Let me see if this one already has a WOFF
   ... so we should wait for the WOFF variant

   ED: Ok

   CM: So looking at the implementation matrix
   ... it lists 6 testes there as not having 2 passes
   ... 2 of them we have decided it was ok, because there are
   implementations for it on the way
   ... 1 of the tests is waiting for a patch in FireFox
   ... and another is being implemented by Abbra

   <ed>
   [17]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2011Mar/0064.html


     [17] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2011Mar/0064.html


   ED: I made changes to two of the font-text tests
   ... based on some feedbcak

   <ed>
   [18]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/harness/htmlObject/tex

   t-intro-02-b.html

     [18] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/harness/htmlObject/text-intro-02-b.html


   ED: it may affect how implementations pass those

   <ed>
   [19]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/harness/htmlObject/tex

   t-intro-09-b.html

     [19] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/harness/htmlObject/text-intro-09-b.html


   ED: it affects the positioning text anchor
   ... and both of those should pass in Opera 11.10 release

   CM: I'm looking at text-intro-02 now
   ... I think we get incorrect behaviour
   ... can you say what the change was?

   ED: Change was to make the last line have a specific text anchor

   CM: There is no auto value?

   ED: Initial value is "start"
   ... There was some confusion whether direction should affect the
   text when unicode-bidi is set to "normal"

   <ChrisL> I willretest text-intro-02 and 09 in abbra

   <ed>
   [20]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/text.html#TextAncho

   rProperty

     [20] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/text.html#TextAnchorProperty


   CM: Why isn't that text-anchor="end" is considered to be the left of
   the point of the text line when going "rtl"?

   <ChrisL> abbra still fails -02

   CM: ok, I'm happy with that

   CL: I just tried that in Abbra
   ... it fails, I don't think it implements bidi override

   <ChrisL> think bidi-override is not implemented perhaps

   ED: The reasoning behind the changes, was based on the i18n groups
   feedback
   ... so I made the tests so that they specify the direction and not
   have it based off the initial character
   ... I think that's what Webkit does as well

   CM: This is not an issue with regular HTML? With normal HTML or SVG
   what effect does the direction property have?

   ED: For "middle" I don't think it makes too much of a difference
   ... I don't think it makes any change to word order or special
   substitutions. It just aligns the text fragment

   CM: So in CSS 2, from their definition. It effects which side of the
   box it overflows out of.
   ... if it's Justified text it effects which direction the last line
   goes
   ... I guess it makes sense that the last line doesn't apply to us

   <scribe> ACTION: Cameron to Retest text-intro-02 and text-intro-09
   in FireFox and Webkit and report back [recorded in
   [21]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/16-svg-minutes.html#action01]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-3010 - Retest text-intro-02 and
   text-intro-09 in FireFox and Webkit and report back [on Cameron
   McCormack - due 2011-03-23].

Compositing Publication

   CL: It has been published!

   AG: Yay! :D

   <heycam> [22]http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-SVGCompositing-20110315/


     [22] http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-SVGCompositing-20110315/


   <ChrisL> [23]http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-SVGCompositing-20110315/


     [23] http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-SVGCompositing-20110315/


   CM: We have LC period for 4 weeks?

   CL: Yes, usual thing. I sent an email off to the CG asking if anyone
   needed longer
   ... no one spoke up, so it's fine then
   ... I asked CSS and XSL specifically if they can provide feedback

   CM: Do we normally announce publish documents on www-svg?

   CL: Now that is officially published
   ... usually the chairs send it out
   ... just say the document is published, give them links and say when
   the last period ends
   ... and some small summary about the document is useful

   <scribe> ACTION: Cameron to Send an email to www-svg announcing the
   publication of the Compositing Specification [recorded in
   [24]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/16-svg-minutes.html#action02]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-3011 - Send an email to www-svg announcing
   the publication of the Compositing Specification [on Cameron
   McCormack - due 2011-03-23].

   CM: Is that a transition?

   CL: It's not a transition in that it requires a transition meeting

   <heycam> ACTION-3011: send one to chairs@ too

   <trackbot> ACTION-3011 Send an email to www-svg announcing the
   publication of the Compositing Specification notes added

   CL: but send the same email to the chairs list but don't cross post

Order of Transform and motion animation application

   <heycam>
   [25]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JanMar/009

   3.html

     [25] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JanMar/0093.html


   CM: I thought it might be unclear in the spec where the transform in
   motion animation gets applied in relation to element
   ... and implementations vary on whether they apply the motion
   transform first or the transform attribute
   ... It would be clear in spec if it defined for each element what
   order things were applied in
   ... in the email I put some wording in, but it's kind of unclear
   ... the wording "on top of" is unclear"
   ... I made a test to see what order things applied in
   ... I don't remember form that thread whether it should be one way
   or not

   AG: Did you try it out in Tiny 1.2 or Abbra for example?

   ED: Alex replied back and said the same as Opera and Firefox

   <ed>
   [26]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JanMar/009

   4.html

     [26] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JanMar/0094.html


   AG: Define for SVG 2? or add something in to 1.1?

   CM: We could probably add a sentence in if we are going to keep
   option "A"
   ... we already have a test for it and there are at least 2 passes
   for it
   ... Erik you said legacy content assumes option "A"

   <ed>
   [27]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JanMar/010

   1.html

     [27] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JanMar/0101.html


   CM: Ikivo editor tool assumes option "A"
   ... I'm wondering which way makes more sense though?
   ... which is more useful?
   ... either way you can work around things by adding extra <g>
   element

   ED: I think it would be a good idea to ask the public list
   ... to see what people think. To see if there are any arguments
   regarding any of those options
   ... Like I said in my email I don't have any strong opinion. We went
   with option "A" because we wanted to be compatible with
   ... the content out there at the time when it was first implemented
   in opera

   <heycam>
   [28]http://www.w3.org/mid/AANLkTimdSODDNoW7VCm8SXL+OF0GBgOdz35iRK5Jt

   2_j@mail.gmail.com

     [28] http://www.w3.org/mid/AANLkTimdSODDNoW7VCm8SXL+OF0GBgOdz35iRK5Jt2_j@mail.gmail.com


   CM: There is a thread starting here
   ... and we'll have to look at that thread
   ... how about I look through that thread and see if it's clear one
   way or another
   ... otherwise if it is not clear I say we go with option "A"

   <scribe> ACTION: Camera to Look through the thread "SVG
   animateMotion specification clarification request" to determine if
   there is a preference for option "A" or "B" [recorded in
   [29]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/16-svg-minutes.html#action03]

   <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Camera

   <scribe> ACTION: Cameron to Look through the thread "SVG
   animateMotion specification clarification request" to determine if
   there is a preference for option "A" or "B" [recorded in
   [30]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/16-svg-minutes.html#action04]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-3012 - Look through the thread "SVG
   animateMotion specification clarification request" to determine if
   there is a preference for option "A" or "B" [on Cameron McCormack -
   due 2011-03-23].

   <ed>
   [31]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2011Mar/0062.html


     [31] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2011Mar/0062.html


Discrete Animation Fix

   ED: So this is basically what was proposed at the face-to-face
   meeting right?

   CL: I remember being this discussed, or if there were any downsides
   - i.e. content that broke

   CM: Yes it was discussed, but I don't think it was clear whether
   this would be part of the changes in SVG 2

   ED: Any proposed wording

   CM: There isn't any proposed wording in his email

   ED: I don't see any broken content because of this

   CM: So maybe somebody could take an action to write a test for this
   to confirm that implementations are doing it this way
   ... and propose wording change

   <scribe> ACTION: Cameron to Write a test to confirm that Brian's
   proposal is implemented by various different implementations and
   propose wording for the specification [recorded in
   [32]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/16-svg-minutes.html#action05]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-3013 - Write a test to confirm that
   Brian's proposal is implemented by various different implementations
   and propose wording for the specification [on Cameron McCormack -
   due 2011-03-23].

CSS Animations

   CM: [Summaries discussion in FX call during the week]
   ... the CSS people were not particularly happy with the attr()
   syntax

   PD: I have been following

   CM: It seems the discussions we had at the face-to-face was CSS
   working group may not like option 2 because they would not a lot of
   properties being added
   ... Tab was given an action to email the working group with the
   options

   <ed>
   [33]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Mar/0347.html


     [33] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Mar/0347.html


   <ed>
   [34]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Mar/0350.html


     [34] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Mar/0350.html


   PD: I just want to get solved
   ... I liked the idea of '-svg-r' for radius for example

   CL: The downside is it makes it hard for Filter properties which
   were specific to filters
   ... we might be adding extra storage space in memory by adding about
   30 - 40 properties

   PD: I was hoping that the svg prefix wouldn't carry over that
   problem to HTML

   CL: Potentially it makes SVG heavier

   <ChrisL> I'm concerned about dom bloat making svg heavier and
   slowerr. 50-odd new properties per element ....

   CM: I think it is valid something to worry about
   ... I don't know how easy it is to optimise but you could only store
   properties that applied to certain elements
   ... this was raised by ROC and others
   ... the other issue being discussed with option number 2 whether to
   only do for this for select attributes only or all of them up front

   PD: I like the staging idea

   CM: ROC's argument is that we need to consider what needs to be done
   up front so we don't paint ourselves into a corner so we can later
   promote other properties
   ... I think it would be good to take a look if we were to promote
   all the attributes
   ... to see what it would be like
   ... to see if we need any new syntax values

   PD: You want an investigation to see if the entire picture will work

   CM: Yes, and how much work it will be
   ... my impression is once you have the architecture to handle
   presentation attribute and properties it wouldn't too much extra
   work
   ... I might have a look at that later on in the week
   ... so I'll post something to FX

   AG: Any issues with initial values, and inheritence?

   CM: Let's keep the discussion going on this for a couple of weeks
   ... and look at it on the next FX call

   trackbot, end telcon

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Camera to Look through the thread "SVG animateMotion
   specification clarification request" to determine if there is a
   preference for option "A" or "B" [recorded in
   [35]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/16-svg-minutes.html#action03]
   [NEW] ACTION: Cameron to Look through the thread "SVG animateMotion
   specification clarification request" to determine if there is a
   preference for option "A" or "B" [recorded in
   [36]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/16-svg-minutes.html#action04]
   [NEW] ACTION: Cameron to Retest text-intro-02 and text-intro-09 in
   FireFox and Webkit and report back [recorded in
   [37]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/16-svg-minutes.html#action01]
   [NEW] ACTION: Cameron to Send an email to www-svg announcing the
   publication of the Compositing Specification [recorded in
   [38]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/16-svg-minutes.html#action02]
   [NEW] ACTION: Cameron to Write a test to confirm that Brian's
   proposal is implemented by various different implementations and
   propose wording for the specification [recorded in
   [39]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/16-svg-minutes.html#action05]

   [End of minutes]
     _________________________________________________________


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     [40] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm

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     [42] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/


Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/CL:/CM:/
Succeeded: s/when set to "normal"/when unicode-bidi is set to "normal"/
Succeeded: s/out there/out there at the time when it was first implemen
ted in opera/
Found Scribe: anthony
Inferring ScribeNick: anthony
Found ScribeNick: anthony
Default Present: [IPcaller], ed, heycam, +39.524.9.aaaa, ChrisL, anthon
y, +39.537.7.aabb, tav, [Microsoft]
Present: [IPcaller] ed heycam +39.524.9.aaaa ChrisL anthony +39.537.7.a
abb tav [Microsoft]
Agenda: [43]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JanMa

r/0250.html
Found Date: 16 Mar 2011
Guessing minutes URL: [44]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/16-svg-minutes.html

People with action items: camera cameron

     [43] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JanMar/0250.html

     [44] http://www.w3.org/2011/03/16-svg-minutes.html


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