W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-svg@w3.org > September 2010

Minutes Paris F2F day 1 (September 3, 2010)

From: Anthony Grasso <anthony.grasso@cisra.canon.com.au>
Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2010 02:29:06 +1000
Message-ID: <4C812252.1050605@cisra.canon.com.au>
To: "public-svg-wg@w3.org" <public-svg-wg@w3.org>, www-svg@w3.org

http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html

-----

    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                    SVG Working Group Teleconference

03 Sep 2010

    See also: [2]IRC log

       [2] http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-irc

Attendees

    Present
    Regrets
    Chair
           SV_MEETING_CHAIR

    Scribe
           Cyril, Anthony

Contents

      * [3]Topics
          1. [4]SVG Vector Effects
          2. [5]SVG 1.1SE Last Call
          3. [6]SVG 1.1 2nd Edition Candidate Recommendation
      * [7]Summary of Action Items
      _________________________________________________________

    <trackbot> Date: 03 September 2010

SVG Vector Effects

    <ChrisL>
    [8]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/vectoreffects/master/SVGVectorEffec
    ts.html

       [8] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/vectoreffects/master/SVGVectorEffects.html

    <Cyril_Concolato> scribe: Cyril

    <ChrisL> scribenick: Cyril_Concolato

    ChrisL: some examples are not in the spec

    when specifying a paint you can use all existing options plus
    currentFill and currentStroke

    you can then stroke a path and the markers with the same stroke

    I blew off some editorial comments

    everything should be animatable

    Doug: we should have a look at all of them

    ChrisL: couple of cleanups that I did, the spec has not changed for
    2 years
    ... the need for DOM came up to get an individual primitive or the
    whole geomrty
    ... but when the effect is used multiple times, we need to discuss
    how to do that

    ED: the same problem exists with gradients

    ChrisL: there was a concern that union/intersection are complex

    anthony: there are expensive
    ... I don't know how fast it could be once animated

    ChrisL: why do this in the language, why not in the authoring tool
    ... but if it's dynamic it has to be in the client

    Doug: also for interchange between authoring tools

    CC: our concern was also complexity but it can be explained in a
    note
    ... why currentFill and currentStroke are linked with vector effect

    ChrisL: it could be added to the main spec

    CC: we also think that vector effect can be used for grouping path
    semantically but we are concerned with the file size increase

    ChrisL: if it's a modest increase in file size it should be
    acceptable

    CC: is adding points to SVG a feature related to vector effects

    ChrisL: no

    <ChrisL> Its a good idea but no obvious intersection with vector
    effects

    CC: yes but points may be shared between paths
    ... and if we want to express that sharing and if we use vector
    effects to share paths between objects, it might make sense to have
    points in vector effects

    Tav: path along path
    ... is it insane ?

    ChrisL: having a shape repeated along a path was shown in the
    mapping requirements

    Tav: I can show an example of a object being stretched along a path

    <tbah> Lizard along path
    [9]http://tavmjong.free.fr/INKSCAPE/MANUAL/html/Paths-LivePathEffect
    s-PatternAlongPath.html

       [9] 
http://tavmjong.free.fr/INKSCAPE/MANUAL/html/Paths-LivePathEffects-PatternAlongPath.html

    <ChrisL> and not ties to the subpath positions, like markers are

    CC: It could be a way to make variable stroke along a path

    <ChrisL> yes that would be very interesting

    Tav: in Inkscape you have a pattern and a path and you can edit them
    separately
    ... it would be nice to be able to edit when the positioning of the
    pattern is active

    ChrisL: I want that we agree on any new feature so that I can move
    on with the spec

    CC: we will provide feedback when we have implemented the use of
    vector effect for our application (superpath)

    ED: I don't have the ressources at the moment to work on it

    ChrisL: if anyone has an implementation it would help to move the
    spec along
    ... I'll try to get the spec ready for another draft
    ... the spec does not talk at all about API
    ... how can it be best done ?
    ... a method on each graphical element or on the filter ?

    DS: having the list of places where an effect is used could be
    useful for online editors

    ChrisL: that could fix the gradient problem

    Anthony: didn't we put wording in the spec about that ?

    ChrisL: I don't recall

    ED: if you have a gradient that use bouding box unit, on the
    gradient we could have an API to evaluate the gradient on a specific
    context

    <shepazu> that would allow us to evaluate an effect on an element
    before it's applied, which could be useful, if it's not too
    expensive

    <anthony>
    [10]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/pservers.html#GradientsIntroduction

      [10] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/pservers.html#GradientsIntroduction

    ChrisL: the vector effects don't change the stroke
    ... I wonder if it would be better to separate the stroke into two
    halfs
    ... inside and outside so that you can manipulate them separately

    DS: that should be accessible with a short hand

    <shepazu> it would be nice to have 'stroke-width-inner' and
    'stroke-width-outer'

    <shepazu> and shorthands should be added to the VE spec

    <ed> topic: SVG 1.1 Last Call

    <ChrisL> scribenick: tbah

SVG 1.1SE Last Call

    <ed> [11]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/products/24

      [11] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/products/24

    <ChrisL> [12]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/DoC/dump.html

      [12] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/DoC/dump.html

    <ed> CL: don't check the file in, gets picked up by tracker and
    linked to every issue

    DS: what about the issue with SVG pointer-events on the svg root,
    esp. used in HTML

    <ChrisL> [13]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/DoC/getxml.html

      [13] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/DoC/getxml.html

    <ed> that's ISSUE-2364, right?

    <ed> ISSUE-2364?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-2364 -- SVG 1.1 may be ambiguous about the root
    element acting as a proximal event target -- raised

    <trackbot> [14]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2364

      [14] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2364

    ChrisL: Don't close issues for last call or they disappear (XSLT
    doesn't pick it up).

    <ChrisL> s/dissapear/dissapear from the autogenerated disposition of
    comments/

    <ChrisL> action-2800?

    <trackbot> ACTION-2800 -- Chris Lilley to send in and track the
    media type registration for image/svg+xml -- due 2010-06-24 -- OPEN

    <trackbot> [15]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2800

      [15] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2800

    ChrisL: Received comment that there should have two different media
    types for svg and compressed svg.

    ChrisL/Cyril: But this isn't necessary since it is handled by
    content headers.

    ChrisL: Please look at registration to see how SVG content is
    handled by clipboards; does it work?

    <ChrisL> Macintosh Universal Type Identifier code:

    <ChrisL> org.w3c.svg conforms to public.image and to public.xml

    <ChrisL> Windows Clipboard Name:

    <ChrisL> "SVG Image"

    <ChrisL>
    [16]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/mimereg.html

      [16] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/mimereg.html

    <ChrisL> don't know for kde or gnome, do they use internet media
    type?

    <ChrisL> tracker, status

    <ChrisL> trackbot, status

    <ChrisL> ACTION: tavmjong to investigate Inkscape SVG on clipboard
    usage [recorded in
    [17]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action01]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2833 - Investigate Inkscape SVG on
    clipboard usage [on Tavmjong Bah - due 2010-09-10].

    <shepazu> [18]http://svg-whiz.com/svg/HideShow.svg

      [18] http://svg-whiz.com/svg/HideShow.svg

    <shepazu> I copy-pasted that with FF

    tav: Inkscape seems to copy as text the svg file... but will
    investigate further.

    DS: It sounds like ChrisL has done due diligence on established
    precedents.

    <ChrisL> Copy and pasting the text is needed, but is separate from
    copy pasting an image (for example to drop into a dtp program)

    <ChrisL> I checked what MathML did and looked at some documentation
    for windows and macosx; did not find good docs for linux gnome, or
    kde

    ED: Is there something to specify if the content is gzipped or not?

    <ChrisL> action-2809?

    <trackbot> ACTION-2809 -- Erik Dahlström to investigate ISSUE-2334
    and report back -- due 2010-07-06 -- OPEN

    <trackbot> [19]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2809

      [19] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2809

    ED: Basically done, will write an email.

    <ChrisL> action-2812?

    <trackbot> ACTION-2812 -- Erik Dahlström to find the test case,
    commit it and make some proposed wording -- due 2010-07-13 -- OPEN

    <trackbot> [20]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2812

      [20] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2812

    <ChrisL> relates to ISSUE-2335 -- Clarify feConvolveMatrix bias
    property, specificasly the bias attribute

    ED: Finding the test case probably not too hard, but will need to
    check that it does what people want.

    <ChrisL> action-2813?

    <trackbot> ACTION-2813 -- Chris Lilley to propose wording for
    ISSUE-2336 to say if it is malformed it doesn't have an effect --
    due 2010-07-13 -- OPEN

    <trackbot> [21]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2813

      [21] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2813

    ChrisL: Change checked in, no comment back from commentor.

    <ChrisL> ah, i now see he did agree
    [22]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Jul/0081.html

      [22] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Jul/0081.html

    <ChrisL> action-2814?

    <trackbot> ACTION-2814 -- Anthony Grasso to add wording to the
    specification to say that the behaviour is unspecified for those
    cases in ISSUE-2337 -- due 2010-07-13 -- OPEN

    <trackbot> [23]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2814

      [23] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2814

    Anthony: Still working on it.

    <ChrisL> action-2817?

    <trackbot> ACTION-2817 -- Chris Lilley to add the promised note
    relating to ISSUE-2340 -- due 2010-07-13 -- OPEN

    <trackbot> [24]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2817

      [24] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2817

    <ChrisL>
    [25]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2010JulSep/001
    0.html

      [25] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2010JulSep/0010.html

    ChrisL: Made test case, got different results in different
    implemenations.

    <ChrisL> erik: check animval in the dom to be sure its not cut off
    at the semicolon

    <ChrisL> <animate keytimes="0s, 2.9s" attributeName="xlink:href"
    values="../images/linkingCircle-f.svg#svgView(viewBox(120,200,40,40)
    );../images/linkingCircle-f.svg#svgView(viewBox(64,227,72,72))"

    ED: Try quote marks.

    <ChrisL> erik: try quote marks around each uri

    DS: Is that allowed?

    <ChrisL> <animate keytimes="0s, 2.9s" attributeName="xlink:href"
    values="'../images/linkingCircle-f.svg#svgView(viewBox(120,200,40,40
    ))';'../images/linkingCircle-f.svg#svgView(viewBox(64,227,72,72))'"

    <ChrisL> sowe would then say that inside quotes, ; is not treated as
    a smil values list separator

    <ChrisL> erik: you could use url escaping too

    <ChrisL> so %3B would be the escape here

    Cyril: Would first split list by ; and then evaluate.

    DS: Quoting would be nicer... maybe something for SVG2.

    ChrisL: Will still work on this.

    <ChrisL> ok so I will make a new test, with percent escaping and
    check in the dom for animval

    <ChrisL> action-2818?

    <trackbot> ACTION-2818 -- Chris Lilley to investigate ISSUE-2341 and
    look for previous comments -- due 2010-07-13 -- OPEN

    <trackbot> [26]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2818

      [26] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2818

    Cyril: Propose to copy 1.2Tiny text.

    ChrisL: Will do that if no one objects.

    <ChrisL> this text
    [27]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/animate.html#complexDistances

      [27] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/animate.html#complexDistances

    <ChrisL> action-2821?

    <trackbot> ACTION-2821 -- Chris Lilley to update the references
    section for issue-2344 -- due 2010-07-13 -- OPEN

    <trackbot> [28]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2821

      [28] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2821

    <ChrisL> cyril: need to update 'list of' in types section too

    ChrisL: Changed and approved.

    <ChrisL> issue is closed, commentor agrees

    ED: Need actions for rest of items.

    <ed> ISSUE-2364?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-2364 -- SVG 1.1 may be ambiguous about the root
    element acting as a proximal event target -- raised

    <trackbot> [29]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2364

      [29] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2364

    <shepazu>
    [30]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Aug/0011.html

      [30] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Aug/0011.html

    <shepazu>
    [31]http://www.schepers.cc/svg/blendups/overlay/test/content.xhtml

      [31] http://www.schepers.cc/svg/blendups/overlay/test/content.xhtml

    <shepazu>
    [32]http://www.schepers.cc/svg/blendups/overlay/test/overlap.xhtml

      [32] http://www.schepers.cc/svg/blendups/overlay/test/overlap.xhtml

    <ChrisL> (updated disposition of comments at
    [33]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/SVG1.1SE-LastCall/dump.html )

      [33] http://www.w3.org/2010/09/SVG1.1SE-LastCall/dump.html

    DS: If you have an SVG plugin in HTML, and you click on a
    non-existent backround, should the event be passed through?

    Cyril: Answer: It can refuse to handle the event and pass it back to
    the system, so the containing application will handle it.

    <shepazu> [34]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/interact.html#PointerEvents

      [34] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/interact.html#PointerEvents

    <anthony> Scribe: Anthony

    <scribe> ScribeNick: anthony

    DS: Now all browsers are consistent for referenced content
    ... they violate the SVG spec

    ED: The point about the reference object
    ... The behaviour would be hard to change
    ... and violate some security protocols

    CC: Looking at overlap.xhtml
    ... when you click on inline
    ... on the bottom
    ... you get two events

    DS: Look at the code
    ... it's a single event
    ... but two boxes
    ... on question is does the event bubble
    ... bubbles for an inline case

    ED: It's never bubbled between documents

    CC: I think the inline case is correctly implemented

    DS: No
    ... it's not in FireFox

    AG: Want it to be consistent

    DS: Click the background
    ... which is incorrect

    ED: I'd assume that the click goes through transparent areas

    CC: We need to agree on behaviours and see if it's correct in the
    spec

    DS: Need to look at use cases and interpretations
    ... so, the argument was raised that treading SVG like a <div> since
    it has dimensions if you clicked inside that <div>
    ... it dispatches the event

    CC: Even with transparent background?

    DS: Yes
    ... so question is have to establish what the default is
    ... and how do you change it

    ED: We had something like FireFox
    ... but we asked to change it

    CC: Have to be consistent with SVG in HTML and SVG in SVG

    DS: We need to look at the spec
    ... currently, Opera and Webkit behave one way with inline SVG
    ... the SVG root does not intercept events
    ... it passes them through

    CC: Nothing happens in the SVG context
    ... regards to this event

    DS: SVG spec is moderately clear on this

    <shepazu>
    [35]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/interact.html#UIEventProcessing

      [35] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/interact.html#UIEventProcessing

    CC: IE9 is doing as Opera is doing

    DS: I would prefer that inline and referenced SVG behaved the same
    way

    ED: Changing that now
    ... would be bad for SVG in general
    ... people have come to expect certain behaviour

    All: [16.5 Read through Processing order for user interface events]

    DS: Clarify that this section is about hit testing and not
    propagation

    ED: Would be better if there was a graph here

    DS: Problem with the section is it confuses hit testing, event
    propagation and order of processing

    ED: It's trying to describe a flowchart or something

    DS: Doesn't talk about things like selecting graphics elements
    ... when SVG was written we didn't talk about default view or window

    ED: How would you change this?

    DS: Instead of processing order
    ... I would break it down to a section on hit testing

    CC: Something has been hit? something not hit?

    DS: Yes, if something hit. Go through and process actions
    ... If it has not been hit
    ... give a context menu

    ED: Would be nice to have an SVG graph
    ... down the side
    ... that matches the text

    AG: I agree, much easier to read and implement

    ED: It's pretty clear what needs to be done

    DS: So we are going to do this in SVG 1.1 Full 2nd edition

    CC: We have this text in Tiny 1.2

    DS: We pulled out the part on pseudo classes

    CC: Has this other bit - 13.8 Event dispatching

    ED: It's different
    ... but might need an errata on Tiny 1.2

    <scribe> ACTION: Doug to Clarify section 16.5 Processing order for
    user interface events relating to problems in ISSUE-2364 [recorded
    in [36]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2834 - Clarify section 16.5 Processing
    order for user interface events relating to problems in ISSUE-2364
    [on Doug Schepers - due 2010-09-10].

    CC: What about key events?

    DS: That's another matter
    ... that's why saying this is about hit testing is relevant

    CC: That's a whole different discussion. But at some point someone
    should investigate this

    DS: ED you're saying for security reasons, you're not going to allow
    events to pass through in an iFrame
    ... It's the same in object
    ... and if you change the one
    ... people would expect the other to change

    ED: If you have an <img> element it's like a static image with no
    script and no events
    ... so it's the HTML you're getting events on

    DS: Do you treat image and object the same?

    ED: No
    ... I assume object, embed and iframe behave the same
    ... embed not so much
    ... object and iframe is mostly the same I think

    CC: What about SVG <image>

    ED: It's defined in the spec
    ... but should behave the way as <img>

    DS: I understand why are you doing this
    ... but for content creation it's a pain
    ... say you have some SVG and you want to click through on the
    element and where there isn't SVG content you
    ... want to get to the HTML

    ED: So you if you have transparency you get the HTML?
    ... Does the same thing happen for PNG?
    ... So we treat it the same

    DS: I'm talking for object here

    ED: Not sure we are talking about the same thing

    DS: Look at my example
    ... We need to have a larger discussion about clicking through the
    transparent content would be a problem

    AG: This would be a good thing to discuss at TPAC

    CC: When the SVG is in the document it's behaviour is the same as a
    <div>

    DS: I'm saying for the inline case
    ... Maybe this needs to happen during a telcon
    ... because we want all browsers to have the correct behaviour

    ED: There might be use cases the other way
    ... not just having events go through

    DS: I said you set pointerEvents to all
    ... as I suggested

    ED: I just think this is something that goes beyond SVG content

    CL: Could probably put that wording in the integration spec

    DS: A quick test that mouse move on an empty SVG document intercepts
    i.e. the root dispatches the event
    ... All the modern browsers I tested
    ... this is contrary to ASV and seems to be contrary to the spec
    ... but is consistent with HTML

    <scribe> ACTION: Doug to Add a table to the integration document
    about the embedded and inline SVG with regards to pointer events on
    the SVG root [recorded in
    [37]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action03]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2835 - Add a table to the integration
    document about the embedded and inline SVG with regards to pointer
    events on the SVG root [on Doug Schepers - due 2010-09-10].

    ISSUE-2363?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-2363 -- Last Call Comment: Reconcile 'stroke'
    presentation attributes on <image> -- raised

    <trackbot> [38]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2363

      [38] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2363

    ED: I think Cameron and me have responded to this on the list
    ... saying what we have now in the spec
    ... is a lot better than what was in previous 1.1 spec
    ... so in the previous 1.1 spec we had DTD to say what attributes
    where on each element
    ... so now have something that can be expanded and is more readable
    and made it more clear
    ... that presentation attributes can be specified anywhere
    ... even if they don't apply to the element it's specified on

    CL: So specified and applied to are distinguished?

    ED: Yes

    CL: Therefore we should reject the comment
    ... because it's a no change required
    ... The issue was raised by Doug

    <ed>
    [39]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/masking.html#ObjectAndGroupOpacityPro
    perties

      [39] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/masking.html#ObjectAndGroupOpacityProperties

    DS: Please show me where it's specified

    ED: That's one example
    ... it clearly says applies to

    <shepazu> [40]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/struct.html#ImageElement

      [40] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/struct.html#ImageElement

    DS: However if you go to here
    ... And you click on the, presentation attributes, it lists it

    CL: That's right
    ... exactly
    ... it doesn't apply to it

    DS: I was talking to someone on IRC and they were trying to do this
    ... (stroke image element)
    ... and they go to the presentation attributes they can set on the
    element
    ... I think we should change the spec to things that have an effect
    on the element

    CL: So it's currently done the other way
    ... for each property it says what it applies to
    ... this is an argument we've had since the entire life time on the
    SVG
    ... then others say somethings should be set only on an element only
    ... in some cases things would be disallowed because when children
    ... were placed in the element
    ... sometimes things apply

    DS: Maybe it's the choice on how fine grain things are categorised

    CL: This is going against a decision that was made 2 -3 years ago
    ... it's a huge change
    ... to be doing this

    DS: Let's be clear
    ... we all agree it is confusing

    CL: It could be confusing

    ED: In some cases yes

    DS: It has been proven to be confusing to some people
    ... including me

    CL: Presentation attributes are in the form of properties

    CC: As an implementer it reads well
    ... as an author
    ... it probably doesn't
    ... what matters at least someone can be confused

    ED: What are you suggesting?

    DS: Is it work the extra time to do this, to change it

    CL: Change how?

    DS: So, maybe in this case if we wanted to do the minimum work if it
    could some how be styled differently
    ... if it has an effect an element

    ED: Yes, that would be nice
    ... make them bold
    ... if they applied to the element

    CC: As long as it is editorial

    CL: It will be editorial
    ... with all the presentation attributes it is a link which takes
    you to the definition

    DS: How is this generated?

    ED: It's generated from the XML, IDL

    CL: Another thing we could do to make the spec better
    ... is to say the difference between applies to and specified on

    CC: Adding the new sentence you said will help
    ... but changing the style and linking to that
    ... would at least give a hint that it's not that simple
    ... having it in bold would say would it apply
    ... it's precise and it's clear
    ... but it doesn't speak to most of the people

    ED: My objection is don't we have that sentence somewhere?
    ... styling?
    ... I would not want to have two sentence that say two different
    things about the same topic

    DS: There is a sentence here in styling
    ... two links away

    ED: Specificity of 0 is in there 6.4

    <shepazu> [[

    <shepazu> For user agents that support CSS, the presentation
    attributes must be translated to corresponding CSS style rules
    according to rules described in Precedence of non-CSS presentational
    hints ([CSS2], section 6.4.4), with the additional clarification
    that the presentation attributes are conceptually inserted into a
    new author style sheet which is the first in the author style sheet
    collection. The presentation attributes thus will participate in the
    CSS2 cascade

    <shepazu> ]]

    CL: The section on presentation attributes could have it in there

    DS: That would be two links away

    <shepazu>
    [41]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/intro.html#TermPresentationAttribute

      [41] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/intro.html#TermPresentationAttribute

    DS: could have it here so that it's one link away
    ... Could say "Note not all presentation attributes specified on an
    element will apply to the element. For a list of elements that a
    property applies to see... blah"
    ... how hard would it be style them bold or normal?

    ED: I think that would be a bit of work
    ... I don't think we have a list or things
    ... adding the sentences here would be less work

    DS: In SVG 2. I would like us to re examine if we can have a stroke
    around the edge of an image?

    CL: Wouldn't that be a border?

    DS: Depends on if we allow padding around it and borders have
    different properties to borders

    <scribe> ACTION: Chris to Include the above disclaimer about the
    applicability of presentation attributes on elements [recorded in
    [42]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action04]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2836 - Include the above disclaimer about
    the applicability of presentation attributes on elements [on Chris
    Lilley - due 2010-09-10].

SVG 1.1 2nd Edition Candidate Recommendation

    back from break

    DS: First we need to agree on the set of tests that make up the SVG
    1.1 2nd edition test suite

    CL: Previously, the action of building the test suit generated all
    the files to do the testing

    AG: I believe the reporting stuff is working

    <scribe> ACTION: Anthony to Check if report generation for the test
    suite is working and report back [recorded in
    [43]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action05]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2837 - Check if report generation for the
    test suite is working and report back [on Anthony Grasso - due
    2010-09-10].

    AG: So the way the test suite generation scripts work is you have a
    list of tests and every component in the test suite
    ... is generated according to that list

    DS: For all the tests we don't have results on, each implementer can
    run the tests and report back to us

    <scribe> ACTION: Doug to Run the tests on Safari on Mac [recorded in
    [44]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action06]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2838 - Run the tests on Safari on Mac [on
    Doug Schepers - due 2010-09-10].

    <scribe> ACTION: Chris to Run the tests on Firefox on Windows
    [recorded in
    [45]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action07]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2839 - Run the tests on Firefox on Windows
    [on Chris Lilley - due 2010-09-10].

    <scribe> ACTION: Erik to Run the tests on Opera [recorded in
    [46]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action08]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2840 - Run the tests on Opera [on Erik
    Dahlström - due 2010-09-10].

    <scribe> ACTION: Cyril to Run the tests on GPac [recorded in
    [47]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action09]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2841 - Run the tests on GPac [on Cyril
    Concolato - due 2010-09-10].

    <scribe> ACTION: Tav to Run the tests on Inkscape [recorded in
    [48]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action10]

    <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Tav

    <scribe> ACTION: Tavmjong to Run the tests on Inkscape [recorded in
    [49]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action11]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2842 - Run the tests on Inkscape [on
    Tavmjong Bah - due 2010-09-10].

    Topics: Connectors

    CL: So that was news to me that you could make a complex path going
    through a few points

    TB: We have a sophisticated routing than what's proposed. But
    because the path between objects can be enhanced
    ... we wouldn't be losing anything that's already in inkscape

    DS: [Demo's current connectors implementation]
    ... Connector goes from centroid to centroid

    AG: This could be difficult to calculate
    ... particularly if you're clipping parts of an object out

    CL: Why not the center of the bounding box?

    DS: Different possible syntax for point
    ... if you're looking at the bounding box of the parent
    ... it'd be useful to allow a percentage of the parent bounding box
    ... A port has a specific role of point
    ... it is a child of a shape
    ... point is a non rendering element
    ... you can style it with a marker

    CL: Effectively it's a zero length line

    DS: Each node being linked to has a port that will be preferential
    to where connection is made
    ... it will always go to the nearest between two ports

    TB: Can you specify
    ... the port?

    DS: Yes
    ... I've got a sample implementation and done some work on this
    ... I want to know if we agree to work on this

    CL: Do we agree that this is the direction we should go in?

    CC: How would you add it, if you were to add it?
    ... a separate module?

    DS: Yes
    ... I'd intend for it to be part of SVG 2
    ... we've had a level of requests for this

    TB: We've had requests for this as well

    DS: This is a common case I've seen again and again

    ED: Not convinced yet

    DS: This is does not add, drag and drop, it does not add routing

    ED: Does it add any dependencies that you need to resolve?

    DS: There are very well defined dependencies
    ... when a shape is moved
    ... the connection changes

    ED: We have to track a lot of dependencies already
    ... the less we need to do the faster it will be
    ... the graph of dependencies grows
    ... you can do this in script
    ... just not convinced

    DS: Yes, you're right
    ... it's a common use case that is not easy to do in script
    ... it doesn't establish the semantics and behaviour
    ... I think it is a compelling feature that makes SVG very
    attractive for use

    CC: You could do the opposite
    ... and say this is a line
    ... and this is connector
    ... and then put a marker on it
    ... This could also be done with Cameron's constraints

    DS: This is a subsection of constraints. Gives people a lot of power
    to build things in SVG
    ... getting the connector for free gives people something accessible
    ... and graphics like this will not be accessible without this

    CC: Couldn't you do this with a line
    ... and give it a role of connector?

    DS: Yes, but it doesn't give the author any reason to do this

    ED: Why does it have to be in SVG?
    ... why not stand alone?
    ... in a completely different spec
    ... used in other languages

    DS: What other languages?

    ED: Connect this div to another div

    DS: But that is not a visual language
    ... SVG is a visual language
    ... this would pretty much the highest thing we would have at this
    level

    CC: There are two parts the rendering constraints and the semantics
    ... I think we can have either the semantics or the constraints

    CL: So I think that he is arguing
    ... that use <path> instead of <connector>
    ... point is fine

    ED: We should close for the day
    ... and continue discussion later

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: Anthony to Check if report generation for the test
    suite is working and report back [recorded in
    [50]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action05]
    [NEW] ACTION: Chris to Include the above disclaimer about the
    applicability of presentation attributes on elements [recorded in
    [51]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action04]
    [NEW] ACTION: Chris to Run the tests on Firefox on Windows [recorded
    in [52]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action07]
    [NEW] ACTION: Cyril to Run the tests on GPac [recorded in
    [53]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action09]
    [NEW] ACTION: Doug to Add a table to the integration document about
    the embedded and inline SVG with regards to pointer events on the
    SVG root [recorded in
    [54]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action03]
    [NEW] ACTION: Doug to Clarify section 16.5 Processing order for user
    interface events relating to problems in ISSUE-2364 [recorded in
    [55]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action02]
    [NEW] ACTION: Doug to Run the tests on Safari on Mac [recorded in
    [56]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action06]
    [NEW] ACTION: Erik to Run the tests on Opera [recorded in
    [57]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action08]
    [NEW] ACTION: Tav to Run the tests on Inkscape [recorded in
    [58]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action10]
    [NEW] ACTION: tavmjong to investigate Inkscape SVG on clipboard
    usage [recorded in
    [59]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action01]
    [NEW] ACTION: Tavmjong to Run the tests on Inkscape [recorded in
    [60]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html#action11]

    [End of minutes]
      _________________________________________________________


     Minutes formatted by David Booth's [61]scribe.perl version 1.135
     ([62]CVS log)
     $Date: 2010/09/03 16:24:37 $
      _________________________________________________________

      [61] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
      [62] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

    [Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135  of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20
Check for newer version at [63]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002
/scribe/

      [63] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/comlex/complex/
Succeeded: s/for authoring exchanges/also for interchange between autho
ring tools/
Succeeded: s/each effect/each graphical element/
Succeeded: s/How do we treat conflicts with other specs? As last call i
tems?/what about the issue with SVG pointer-events on the svg root, esp
. used in HTML/
FAILED: s/dissapear/dissapear from the autogenerated disposition of com
ments/
Succeeded: s/It sounds like ChrisL has done due diigence on establihed
precedents/It sounds like ChrisL has done due diligence on established
precedents/
Succeeded: s/Cryil/Cyril/
Succeeded: s/If/DS: If/
Succeeded: s/No/It can refuse to handle the event and pass it back to t
he system, so the containing application will handle it/
Succeeded: s/apply to it/apply to the element it's specified on/
Succeeded: s/elemnt/element/
Found Scribe: Cyril
Found ScribeNick: Cyril_Concolato
Found ScribeNick: tbah
Found Scribe: Anthony
Inferring ScribeNick: anthony
Found ScribeNick: anthony
Scribes: Cyril, Anthony
ScribeNicks: Cyril_Concolato, tbah, anthony

WARNING: No "Present: ... " found!
Possibly Present: AG All CC CL ChrisL Cyril Cyril_Concolato DS Doug TB
anthony ed erik f1lt3r joined scribenick shepazu svg tav tbah trackbot
You can indicate people for the Present list like this:
         <dbooth> Present: dbooth jonathan mary
         <dbooth> Present+ amy


WARNING: No meeting chair found!
You should specify the meeting chair like this:
<dbooth> Chair: dbooth

Found Date: 03 Sep 2010
Guessing minutes URL: [64]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: anthony chris cyril doug erik tav tavmjong

      [64] http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html

    End of [65]scribe.perl diagnostic output]

      [65] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
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