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Minutes SVG WG telcon Apr 8, 2010

From: Anthony Grasso <anthony.grasso@cisra.canon.com.au>
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 12:33:35 +1000
Message-ID: <4BC2867F.1030208@cisra.canon.com.au>
To: www-svg@w3.org
http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-svg-minutes.html

---

    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                    SVG Working Group Teleconference

08 Apr 2010

    [2]Agenda

       [2] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Agenda#for_telcon_2010-04-08

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-svg-irc

Attendees

    Present
           [Microsoft], Shepazu, [IPcaller], ed, ChrisL, anthony

    Regrets
    Chair
           SV_MEETING_CHAIR

    Scribe
           patrickd

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]Handling of out-of-range values in SVG DOM
             http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Mar/0053.ht
             ml
      * [6]Summary of Action Items
      _________________________________________________________

    <trackbot> Date: 08 April 2010

    <ed> trackbot, start telcon

    <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference

    <trackbot> Date: 08 April 2010

    <scribe> scribenick:patrickd

    scribekick: patrickd

    <scribe> scribenick: patrickd

    shepazu: Patrick asked about SVGZoom

    patrickd: I got my issues resolved; the issue with firefox was a bug
    ... But there is an issue that was raised around SVG in XHTML

    shepazu: The root most SVG element is the root most element of which
    the current SVG fragment is a child
    ... consider SVG>XHTML>SVG
    ... Consider XHTML>SVG>SVG

    <ChrisL> xhtml > svg1 > svg2

    <ChrisL> svg1 is the rootmost

    patrickd: Should SVGZoom fire on every SVG element?

    <shepazu> html1 > svg1 > html2 > svg2

    shepazu: Zoom should fire on the rootmost element.

    <shepazu> svg1 > svg2

    ChrisL: The basic thing is that the rootmost is the only thing that
    fires.

    <shepazu> html1 > svg1 > html2 > svg2 > svg3

    ChrisL: in xhtml>svg1>sg2, svg2 starts a document fragment, but that
    is wholy contained in SVG1; SVG1 should only fire
    ... In the case of html1> svg1> html2 > svg2 would fire for both
    SVG1&2
    ... If they are nested, they are still separate, they both fire.

    shepazu: In the case when you html2> svg1 > html2> svg2 >svg3

    <ed>
    [7]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/interact.html#ZoomEv
    ent

       [7] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/interact.html#ZoomEvent

    <ChrisL> if they are nested without intervening other-ns stuff, only
    the rootmost one fires

    shepazu: If I did something to zoom in on svg3, it would fire on
    svg2

    ChrisL: right

    <ed> and
    [8]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/script.html#Interfac
    eSVGZoomEvent

       [8] 
http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/script.html#InterfaceSVGZoomEvent

    ed: changing currentScale fires zoomEvent

    shepazu: Both UA zooming and script will fire the zoomEvent

    <ed>
    [9]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/struct.html#__svg__S
    VGSVGElement__currentScale

       [9] 
http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/struct.html#__svg__SVGSVGElement__currentScale

    shepazu: Differentiate zoom and magnify from the UA messaging
    perspective

    ChrisL: So even if to the user a command is noted as zoom in both
    cases, the UA needs to differentiate between an SVGZoom and a
    magnify

    shepazu: There is a new spec coming from the web apps WG dealing
    with touch,etc; around guestures (i.e. pinch). So this will be
    likely sorted out there (magnify vs. zoom)
    ... from a UA perspective, if I were using flash, and I see flash,
    and i right-click on flash, it would only zoom in the flash. It
    should be the same experience for SVG.
    ... There is an oustanding bug in Firefox resolved as won't fix,
    that says we don't want to get special zoom capability to users in
    SVG documents; we think that behavior is wrong.

    ed: what happens when you set currentScale on a nested svg element
    is explicitly undefined in svg1.1f2

    issue: Add section to SVG 2.0 specification to disambiguate zoom and
    maginify as well as handle use cases of nesting and mixed content

    <trackbot> Created ISSUE-2319 - Add section to SVG 2.0 specification
    to disambiguate zoom and maginify as well as handle use cases of
    nesting and mixed content ; please complete additional details at
    [10]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2319/edit .

      [10] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2319/edit

    ChrisL: In the case of <foreignObject> in SVG, the HTML window would
    respond as if CSS had adjusted it's dimension

    shepazu: I personally think that it would zoom in; there are
    potentially use cases for both

    ed: A couple of items left over after previous telecons: syntax of
    negative values in points;

    <ed> [11]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2314

      [11] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2314

    ed: Should we fix this in the 1.12nd edition or move to SVG 2.0

    shepazu: We should do this in SVG 2.0

    patrickd: Right now, -100-100 is not allowed

    ed: Right, it is not allowed

    <ed>
    [12]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/shapes.html#PointsB
    NF

      [12] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/shapes.html#PointsBNF

    <ed>
    [13]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/paths.html#PathData
    BNF

      [13] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/paths.html#PathDataBNF

    patrickd: Should we fix the language in 2nd edition;

    ChrisL: Is it currently allowed

    <ed>
    [14]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Mar/0050.html

      [14] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Mar/0050.html

    ed: It is currently supported by opera, webkit and ie9 support this,
    but not some others

    ChrisL: The BNF for path doesn't say you can leave out a whitespace,
    yet all implementations support this

    shepazu: This is a question of which spec to define this in; this is
    the right behavior

    ChrisL: Probably could adjust the existing BNF using the existing
    language

    shepazu: Do we want to use BNF?

    ChrisL: We would ideally have a set of tools to compress and/or
    expand to determine whether it is real or not and express it in a
    form for brevity or readability

    <scribe> ACTION: chrisl to Respond to Jeff's message on the BNF
    issue, how to address it in 2.0 as well as request recommendations
    on alternate forms [recorded in
    [15]http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-svg-minutes.html#action01]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2752 - Respond to Jeff's message on the
    BNF issue, how to address it in 2.0 as well as request
    recommendations on alternate forms [on Chris Lilley - due
    2010-04-15].

    ed: How do we resolve this going forward?

    ChrisL: Allow for common behavior in both

    ed: Do we want to fix this in 2nd edition or 2.0

    ChrisL: Depends on how hard it is is to fix the BNF; if it is
    changing it for a different grammar, let's push to 2.0

    ed: Alternative is to fix it in text and give direction on combining
    the two

    <scribe> ACTION: ChrisL to Investigate BNF fix for path and pologyon
    commonality and see if it is easier to fix 2nd edition spec or move
    to 2.0 spec [recorded in
    [16]http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-svg-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2753 - Investigate BNF fix for path and
    pologyon commonality and see if it is easier to fix 2nd edition spec
    or move to 2.0 spec [on Chris Lilley - due 2010-04-15].

    ed: Should provide test for the solution for this as well

    <ed> "10.2.4.5" what does it parse as?

    <ed>
    [17]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/paths.html#PathData
    BNF

      [17] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/paths.html#PathDataBNF

    ed: There was a similar issue raised for elliptical arc

    <ChrisL> so we need two test for polyline then, one with missing
    space 100-200 and one for concatenated decimals 0.2.3

    <ed>
    [18]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Apr/0006.html

      [18] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Apr/0006.html

    ed: We should allow for skipping of space and comma between
    largeArcFlag and the sweepFlag
    ... Instead of ', *wsp' it should be ',wsp?'

    <ed> so change elliptical-arc-argument to become this:

    <ed> nonnegative-number comma-wsp? nonnegative-number comma-wsp?

    <ed> number comma-wsp flag comma-wsp? flag comma-wsp coordinate-pair

    <scribe> ACTION: ed to Change language in language around largeArc
    and sweepArc to allow for skipping of white space and comma, write
    test case, and communicate back to Jeff [recorded in
    [19]http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-svg-minutes.html#action03]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2754 - Change language in language around
    largeArc and sweepArc to allow for skipping of white space and
    comma, write test case, and communicate back to Jeff [on Erik
    Dahlström - due 2010-04-15].

    ed: There was a questoin about handling out of range values

Handling of out-of-range values in SVG DOM
[20]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Mar/0053.html

      [20] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Mar/0053.html

    <ChrisL> close ACTION-2752

    <trackbot> ACTION-2752 Respond to Jeff's message on the BNF issue,
    how to address it in 2.0 as well as request recommendations on
    alternate forms closed

    <ed>
    [21]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/coords.html#Interfa
    ceSVGPreserveAspectRatio

      [21] 
http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/coords.html#InterfaceSVGPreserveAspectRatio

    <ed> [22]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/svgudom.html#FloatValues
    (just checking if there was anything said on negative values in
    1.2T)

      [22] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/svgudom.html#FloatValues

    shepazu: SHouldn't be an error
    ... Shouldn't halt rendering

    ChrisL: Errors in SVG 1.1 are different from parsing errors in XML
    ... Document can go in and out of error over time
    ... If it's a parsing error it should halt right there

    ed: Probably more correct to throw an exception; would lean towards
    this, but not for a negative value, but for an out of range value,
    and keep the old value
    ... Also for negative (which are out of range)

    <scribe> ACTION: patrickd to Correct SVGPreserveAspectRatio out of
    range language to reflect that the error should be raised and the
    value should be preserved when an invalid value is set [recorded in
    [23]http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-svg-minutes.html#action04]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2755 - Correct SVGPreserveAspectRatio out
    of range language to reflect that the error should be raised and the
    value should be preserved when an invalid value is set [on Patrick
    Dengler - due 2010-04-15].

    ChrisL: Face-to-Face meeting; we will shorten this from 24th to
    31st. Patrick will get a room for the Monday the 24th.
    ... Then folks can go to LGM in between (no conference fee)

    <ed> elm.href.baseVal = "newurl"

    <ed>
    [24]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/types.html#InterfaceSVGAnimatedString

      [24] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/types.html#InterfaceSVGAnimatedString

    shepazu: We are thinking that we don't want to distrub setattribute
    or setattributeNS
    ... Now we are thinking that href takes precendence over xlink:href;
    there is no mirroring of the values; and that there should be a
    propperty setter, href, that sets the href property and not
    xlink:href

    anthony: Might need a new time for conf call as winter here or there
    is not necessarily winter there

    shepazu: We want it either 5 hours earlier or 2 hours later
    ... let's move it to 5 hours earlier
    ... Move it 5.5 hours earlier Mon/Thurs
    ... This conflicts with ODF call
    ... Actually 5.5 hours is OK. Somone will type the UTC time
    ... 14:30 UTC

    trackbot, end telecon

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: ChrisL to Investigate BNF fix for path and pologyon
    commonality and see if it is easier to fix 2nd edition spec or move
    to 2.0 spec [recorded in
    [25]http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-svg-minutes.html#action02]
    [NEW] ACTION: chrisl to Respond to Jeff's message on the BNF issue,
    how to address it in 2.0 as well as request recommendations on
    alternate forms [recorded in
    [26]http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-svg-minutes.html#action01]
    [NEW] ACTION: ed to Change language in language around largeArc and
    sweepArc to allow for skipping of white space and comma, write test
    case, and communicate back to Jeff [recorded in
    [27]http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-svg-minutes.html#action03]
    [NEW] ACTION: patrickd to Correct SVGPreserveAspectRatio out of
    range language to reflect that the error should be raised and the
    value should be preserved when an invalid value is set [recorded in
    [28]http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-svg-minutes.html#action04]

    [End of minutes]
      _________________________________________________________


     Minutes formatted by David Booth's [29]scribe.perl version 1.135
     ([30]CVS log)
     $Date: 2010/04/08 21:51:06 $
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      [29] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
      [30] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

    [Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/It is not well defined what happens when SVG and XHTML are
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Succeeded: s/webkit/webkit and ie9/
Found ScribeNick: patrickd
Found ScribeNick: patrickd
Inferring Scribes: patrickd
Default Present: [Microsoft], Shepazu, [IPcaller], ed, ChrisL, anthony
Present: [Microsoft] Shepazu [IPcaller] ed ChrisL anthony
Agenda: [32]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Agenda#for_telcon_20
10-04-08

      [32] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Agenda#for_telcon_2010-04-08

WARNING: No meeting chair found!
You should specify the meeting chair like this:
<dbooth> Chair: dbooth

Found Date: 08 Apr 2010
Guessing minutes URL: [33]http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: chrisl ed patrickd

      [33] http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-svg-minutes.html

WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines.
You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.


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      [34] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
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