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SVG Working Group Teleconference Notes: 4/8/2010

From: Patrick Dengler <patd@microsoft.com>
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 21:53:15 +0000
To: www-svg <www-svg@w3.org>
Message-ID: <4A2DB3AE4504E944AF122BBFBA7FBA1F4E7CA48E@TK5EX14MBXC116.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>


- DRAFT -
SVG Working Group Teleconference
08 Apr 2010
Agenda

See also: IRC log

Attendees
Present
[Microsoft], Shepazu, [IPcaller], ed, ChrisL, anthony
Regrets
Chair
SV_MEETING_CHAIR
Scribe
patrickd
Contents
.Topics 
1.Handling of out-of-range values in SVG DOM http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Mar/0053.html
.Summary of Action Items

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<trackbot> Date: 08 April 2010

<ed> trackbot, start telcon

<trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference

<trackbot> Date: 08 April 2010

<scribe> scribenick:patrickd

scribekick: patrickd

<scribe> scribenick: patrickd

shepazu: Patrick asked about SVGZoom

patrickd: I got my issues resolved; the issue with firefox was a bug
... But there is an issue that was raised around SVG in XHTML

shepazu: The root most SVG element is the root most element of which the current SVG fragment is a child
... consider SVG>XHTML>SVG
... Consider XHTML>SVG>SVG

<ChrisL> xhtml > svg1 > svg2

<ChrisL> svg1 is the rootmost

patrickd: Should SVGZoom fire on every SVG element?

<shepazu> html1 > svg1 > html2 > svg2

shepazu: Zoom should fire on the rootmost element.

<shepazu> svg1 > svg2

ChrisL: The basic thing is that the rootmost is the only thing that fires.

<shepazu> html1 > svg1 > html2 > svg2 > svg3

ChrisL: in xhtml>svg1>sg2, svg2 starts a document fragment, but that is wholy contained in SVG1; SVG1 should only fire
... In the case of html1> svg1> html2 > svg2 would fire for both SVG1&2
... If they are nested, they are still separate, they both fire.

shepazu: In the case when you html2> svg1 > html2> svg2 >svg3

<ed> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/interact.html#ZoomEvent

<ChrisL> if they are nested without intervening other-ns stuff, only the rootmost one fires

shepazu: If I did something to zoom in on svg3, it would fire on svg2

ChrisL: right

<ed> and http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/script.html#InterfaceSVGZoomEvent

ed: changing currentScale fires zoomEvent

shepazu: Both UA zooming and script will fire the zoomEvent

<ed> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/struct.html#__svg__SVGSVGElement__currentScale

shepazu: Differentiate zoom and magnify from the UA messaging perspective

ChrisL: So even if to the user a command is noted as zoom in both cases, the UA needs to differentiate between an SVGZoom and a magnify

shepazu: There is a new spec coming from the web apps WG dealing with touch,etc; around guestures (i.e. pinch). So this will be likely sorted out there (magnify vs. zoom)
... from a UA perspective, if I were using flash, and I see flash, and i right-click on flash, it would only zoom in the flash. It should be the same experience for SVG.
... There is an oustanding bug in Firefox resolved as won't fix, that says we don't want to get special zoom capability to users in SVG documents; we think that behavior is wrong.

ed: what happens when you set currentScale on a nested svg element is explicitly undefined in svg1.1f2

issue: Add section to SVG 2.0 specification to disambiguate zoom and maginify as well as handle use cases of nesting and mixed content

<trackbot> Created ISSUE-2319 - Add section to SVG 2.0 specification to disambiguate zoom and maginify as well as handle use cases of nesting and mixed content ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2319/edit .

ChrisL: In the case of <foreignObject> in SVG, the HTML window would respond as if CSS had adjusted it's dimension

shepazu: I personally think that it would zoom in; there are potentially use cases for both

ed: A couple of items left over after previous telecons: syntax of negative values in points;

<ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2314

ed: Should we fix this in the 1.12nd edition or move to SVG 2.0

shepazu: We should do this in SVG 2.0

patrickd: Right now, -100-100 is not allowed

ed: Right, it is not allowed

<ed> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/shapes.html#PointsBNF

<ed> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/paths.html#PathDataBNF

patrickd: Should we fix the language in 2nd edition;

ChrisL: Is it currently allowed

<ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Mar/0050.html

ed: It is currently supported by opera, webkit and ie9 support this, but not some others

ChrisL: The BNF for path doesn't say you can leave out a whitespace, yet all implementations support this

shepazu: This is a question of which spec to define this in; this is the right behavior

ChrisL: Probably could adjust the existing BNF using the existing language

shepazu: Do we want to use BNF?

ChrisL: We would ideally have a set of tools to compress and/or expand to determine whether it is real or not and express it in a form for brevity or readability

<scribe> ACTION: chrisl to Respond to Jeff's message on the BNF issue, how to address it in 2.0 as well as request recommendations on alternate forms [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-svg-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-2752 - Respond to Jeff's message on the BNF issue, how to address it in 2.0 as well as request recommendations on alternate forms [on Chris Lilley - due 2010-04-15].

ed: How do we resolve this going forward?

ChrisL: Allow for common behavior in both

ed: Do we want to fix this in 2nd edition or 2.0

ChrisL: Depends on how hard it is is to fix the BNF; if it is changing it for a different grammar, let's push to 2.0

ed: Alternative is to fix it in text and give direction on combining the two

<scribe> ACTION: ChrisL to Investigate BNF fix for path and pologyon commonality and see if it is easier to fix 2nd edition spec or move to 2.0 spec [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-svg-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-2753 - Investigate BNF fix for path and pologyon commonality and see if it is easier to fix 2nd edition spec or move to 2.0 spec [on Chris Lilley - due 2010-04-15].

ed: Should provide test for the solution for this as well

<ed> "10.2.4.5" what does it parse as?

<ed> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/paths.html#PathDataBNF

ed: There was a similar issue raised for elliptical arc

<ChrisL> so we need two test for polyline then, one with missing space 100-200 and one for concatenated decimals 0.2.3

<ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Apr/0006.html

ed: We should allow for skipping of space and comma between largeArcFlag and the sweepFlag
... Instead of ', *wsp' it should be ',wsp?'

<ed> so change elliptical-arc-argument to become this:

<ed> nonnegative-number comma-wsp? nonnegative-number comma-wsp?

<ed> number comma-wsp flag comma-wsp? flag comma-wsp coordinate-pair

<scribe> ACTION: ed to Change language in language around largeArc and sweepArc to allow for skipping of white space and comma, write test case, and communicate back to Jeff [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-svg-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-2754 - Change language in language around largeArc and sweepArc to allow for skipping of white space and comma, write test case, and communicate back to Jeff [on Erik Dahlström - due 2010-04-15].

ed: There was a questoin about handling out of range values

Handling of out-of-range values in SVG DOM http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Mar/0053.html
<ChrisL> close ACTION-2752

<trackbot> ACTION-2752 Respond to Jeff's message on the BNF issue, how to address it in 2.0 as well as request recommendations on alternate forms closed

<ed> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/coords.html#InterfaceSVGPreserveAspectRatio

<ed> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/svgudom.html#FloatValues (just checking if there was anything said on negative values in 1.2T)

shepazu: SHouldn't be an error
... Shouldn't halt rendering

ChrisL: Errors in SVG 1.1 are different from parsing errors in XML
... Document can go in and out of error over time
... If it's a parsing error it should halt right there

ed: Probably more correct to throw an exception; would lean towards this, but not for a negative value, but for an out of range value, and keep the old value
... Also for negative (which are out of range)

<scribe> ACTION: patrickd to Correct SVGPreserveAspectRatio out of range language to reflect that the error should be raised and the value should be preserved when an invalid value is set [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-svg-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-2755 - Correct SVGPreserveAspectRatio out of range language to reflect that the error should be raised and the value should be preserved when an invalid value is set [on Patrick Dengler - due 2010-04-15].

ChrisL: Face-to-Face meeting; we will shorten this from 24th to 31st. Patrick will get a room for the Monday the 24th.
... Then folks can go to LGM in between (no conference fee)

<ed> elm.href.baseVal = "newurl"

<ed> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/types.html#InterfaceSVGAnimatedString

shepazu: We are thinking that we don't want to distrub setattribute or setattributeNS
... Now we are thinking that href takes precendence over xlink:href; there is no mirroring of the values; and that there should be a propperty setter, href, that sets the href property and not xlink:href

anthony: Might need a new time for conf call as winter here or there is not necessarily winter there

shepazu: We want it either 5 hours earlier or 2 hours later
... let's move it to 5 hours earlier
... Move it 5.5 hours earlier Mon/Thurs
... This conflicts with ODF call
... Actually 5.5 hours is OK. Somone will type the UTC time
... 14:30 UTC

trackbot, end telecon

Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: ChrisL to Investigate BNF fix for path and pologyon commonality and see if it is easier to fix 2nd edition spec or move to 2.0 spec [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-svg-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: chrisl to Respond to Jeff's message on the BNF issue, how to address it in 2.0 as well as request recommendations on alternate forms [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-svg-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: ed to Change language in language around largeArc and sweepArc to allow for skipping of white space and comma, write test case, and communicate back to Jeff [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-svg-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: patrickd to Correct SVGPreserveAspectRatio out of range language to reflect that the error should be raised and the value should be preserved when an invalid value is set [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-svg-minutes.html#action04]
 
[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2010/04/08 21:51:06 $ 

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Succeeded: s/It is not well defined what happens when SVG and XHTML are mixed/what happens when you set currentScale on a nested svg element is explicitly undefined in svg1.1f2/
Succeeded: s/webkit/webkit and ie9/
Found ScribeNick: patrickd
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Inferring Scribes: patrickd
Default Present: [Microsoft], Shepazu, [IPcaller], ed, ChrisL, anthony
Present: [Microsoft] Shepazu [IPcaller] ed ChrisL anthony
Agenda: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Agenda#for_telcon_2010-04-08

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<dbooth> Chair: dbooth

Found Date: 08 Apr 2010
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: chrisl ed patrickd

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