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Minutes, 26 September 2009 SVG WG F2F - Day 1

From: Anthony Grasso <anthony.grasso@cisra.canon.com.au>
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 03:09:32 +1000
Message-ID: <4ABF9C4C.1000406@cisra.canon.com.au>
To: www-svg@w3.org, public-svg-wg@w3.org

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       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                    SVG Working Group Teleconference

26 Sep 2009

    See also: [2]IRC log

       [2] http://www.w3.org/2009/09/26-svg-irc



           Anthony, Cameron, Jonathan


      * [3]Topics
          1. [4]XSL Report
          2. [5]SVG Fonts
      * [6]Summary of Action Items

    <trackbot> Date: 26 September 2009

    <heycam> Meeting: Mountain View F2F 2009 Day 1

    <anthony_with_mous> Scribe: Anthony

    <anthony_with_mous> ScribeNick: anthony_with_moustache

XSL Report

    <anthony_with_mous> CL: I went to the XSL F2F

    <anthony_with_mous> ... was there for 2 days of the meeting

    <anthony_with_mous> ... main topic of discussion was shapes

    <anthony_with_mous> ... they want to have arbitrary shapes

    <anthony_with_mous> ... or set of shapes

    <anthony_with_mous> ... to any block

    <anthony_with_mous> ... they have page masters then blocks

    <anthony_with_mous> ... and the idea is to add shapes to the blocks

    <anthony_with_mous> ... and idea is the text would fit in the shape

    <anthony_with_mous> ... then flow to the next shape

    <anthony_with_mous> ... by text they mean anything

    <anthony_with_mous> ... tables, lists

    <anthony_with_mous> ... then there are two add ons that make it a
    bit complicated

    <anthony_with_mous> ... tri-tables

    <anthony_with_mous> ... that allow adjustments by varying different

    <heycam> ScribeNick: anthony_with_mous

    UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: and therefore the text fits with in the shape
    ... and then there's shapes that grow
    ... as the text gets bigger the shape gets bigger in the middle

    DS: It seems to me there's also another case that people want
    ... the first is what you said - copy fitting
    ... it's pretty common that people want to do copy fitting
    ... where they want the text to grow to fit the size of the shape
    ... if you want to have SVG boarders on a CSS block
    ... we don't have any way in SVG saying make this part change
    ... we don't have any way of stating the intentionality of the shape

    AG: Is that still in scope with SVG?

    DS: We could have essentially the pie shape, bars, but not by
    defining them as something with certain behaviours
    ... but more so like the constraint stuff
    ... if we have parts of the shape to grow to meet certain

    <ChrisL> notes from the text flowing into shape discussions

       [7] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Sep/0056.html

    DS: SVG wouldn't define a pie chart, they'd define things would grow

    CL: I dropped a link in
    ... and if you scroll down to the bottom
    ... you'll see SMIL
    ... Liam is wondering if you can use SMIL in XSL
    ... I said not really
    ... and suggested a subset of SMIL
    ... the path animation to be exact

    CM: What does path animation represent?

    CL: The main difference here is you're not getting a change over
    ... it represents the shape you want

    CM: The paper you're talking about growing shape to fit text

    <ChrisL> hit the 'pdf' link from

       [8] http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?doid=1166160.1166165

    CL: In an XSL file the want to have some SVG
    ... have some SVG because you want to draw it or use bits of it but
    don't want to draw
    ... Liam was saying SVG has <defs> element
    ... They'd like to point to gradients
    ... and bits of SVG that's useful
    ... they specifically mentioned doing stuff in Inkscape and dropping
    it in
    ... I gave them an update on the fonts work
    ... there's a public list www-font
    ... and there's a lot of discussion about what do with web fonts
    ... CSS and SVG give you the ability to the open type fonts
    ... which is the same font format as the for sale fonts are sold as
    ... in response to that there were two formats proposed
    ... EOT format
    ... from Microsoft
    ... they have an embedded uri RootString
    ... which people didn't like

    <shepazu> s /EOT/EOT

    CL: the next format was MTX from Agfa
    ... it was objected on the grounds was compression libraries can
    have security problems
    ... so there was case study where gcip was shown to be almost as
    good as MTX particularly with Unicode
    ... as a result there was a proposal for a new font format
    ... a web font format
    ... re-encoding of open type fonts
    ... it was proposed Jonathon Kew
    ... it has a table of sizes and then individual Open Type table
    ... that can be reference
    ... if it's compressed it will say the size when uncompressed

    <heycam> [9]http://mcc.id.au/temp/p3-hurst.pdf -- that's nathan's

       [9] http://mcc.id.au/temp/p3-hurst.pdf

    CL: there's a specification available and an implementation
    ... that converts both ways to and from open type

    [10]http://people.mozilla.com/~jkew/woff/woff-2009-09-16.html -
    that's Jonathan Kew's WOFF spec

      [10] http://people.mozilla.com/~jkew/woff/woff-2009-09-16.html

    DS: He's form SIL and he's interested in the international case
    ... since he has the individual tables zipped
    ... for someone in a place with limited bandwidth it's better then
    for them

    ED: But there's still CPU and memory needed to decompress everything
    ... so there may not be any benefit

    CL: You can download the list tables initially to see which tables
    are needed

    ED: There may not be a big benefit compared to having the whole
    thing zipped due to network latency

    CL: That format was originally called web OTF
    ... there were questions by W3C could use the name
    ... the 3rd draft is called WOFF
    ... Web Open Font Format
    ... There are for formats for doing downloadable fonts
    ... SVG, WOFF, EOT, EOT-lite

    DS: Five
    ... OpenType

    JW: So when you say OpenType you are including TrueType as well?

    CL: Yes OpenType is a super set
    ... my charter proposal will for the formats that are not
    ... The thing that people liked was to conform to the spec people
    would have to implement two of the formats
    ... and the bit that I'm going to put in is you have to support
    either the CSS or an XML format
    ... the reason that's interesting and I'm calling it the XML syntax
    and not SVG is because XSL want to use it
    ... in there own name space
    ... they plan to adopt that just as is

    DS: Another reason to make the group is it gets commitment form the
    members to start using the format

    CL: There were some font foundries that were saying we can have
    different licenses for the different formats
    ... so they're happy
    ... one thing with the SVG fonts is they can't do hinting and the
    internationalisation isn't there
    ... one thing we could say for SVG 2.0 is we could say you'd have to
    support WOFF

    CM: Just wondering if you can stick SVG inside something like
    ... the glyph shapes in OpenType are like cubic beziers?

    CL: There are constraints in OpenType fonts

    <heycam> Scribe: Cameron

    <heycam> ScribeNick: heycam

    CL: the xsl group is producing a thing called "design notes"


      [11] http://www.w3.org/Style/XSL/Group/2009/03/FPWD-xsl-fo-20.html

    CL: they had a piece about colour that was drawn from svg print
    ... and the only bit it really had was the device specific colour


      [12] http://people.mozilla.com/~jkew/woff/woff-spec-latest.html

    CL: they were getting ready to publish this, and almost about to
    ... i offered to rewrite the colour section


      [13] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-xsl-fo-sg/2009Sep/0033.html

    CL: i explained the differences between svg colour and svg print,
    the current state of things, and proposed wording which they agreed
    ... so it's in the spec now
    ... i gave them some wording, assuming you adopt all features from
    svg color, which you would probably select from
    ... and i suggested some syntax that seemed to fit with their style
    ... and they accepted the proposal as is

    AG: so you always have to place an rgb falback

    CL: yes, srgb fallback
    ... some others wanted cmyk fallback, but we ended up with just srgb

    CM: why is the "ICC" in capitals there?
    ... are xsl properties case sensitive?

    CL: yes they are
    ... i don't mind if they change that
    ... we got one piece of feedback on this
    ... in the design notes it says "Four new functions are added to
    support device-dependent color"
    ... the HP person wanted "device n channel" instead of "device multi
    ... the other change he wanted was a uri or reference to a block of
    data, since that's the way they do it, of describing the colors in
    the printer
    ... we were vaguely aware that's what they did, but we didn't have
    concrete information

    <fat_tony> Scribe: Anthony

    <fat_tony> ScribeNick: fat_tony

SVG Fonts

    CM: Robert wonders what the use cases for SVG Fonts are

    CL: I sent a reply
    ... with a bunch of use cases
    ... and he replied to say that was useful

    CM: What I'd like to know is
    ... what features of SVG Fonts can you not with regular OpenType
    fonts are used
    ... and which of them are basically an abuse of SVG Fonts to get
    some nifty behaviour

    CL: The only abuse that I'm aware of is wishing SVG had a Y-Up
    coordinate system

    ED: I've seen people using fancy stroking for effects

    <ed> ...using glyphs in svg fonts

    DS: Which ones are used?

    CM: Yes and which ones are not

    DS: Hard to know at this point
    ... because ASV supported them
    ... and it's older content
    ... I'd like to be able to use SVG Fonts for doing complex shapes
    for illuminated fonts

    CL: You can do RT stuff
    ... multi-coloured stuff
    ... anything you can draw you can make it into a glyph


      [14] http://www.alifetimeofcolor.com/study/images/illum_manuscript_l.jpg

    CL: if you give people a way to draw pictures and wrap it as text

    <shepazu> [15]http://www.graphic-design.com/Type/caps/CapB.jpg

      [15] http://www.graphic-design.com/Type/caps/CapB.jpg

    CL: people will eventually put pictures as text

    DS: [talks about second link]

    CM: What happens when you fill SVG Font text?

    CL: We added something specific for just the 'd' attribute

    DS: You mean for Tiny?

    CL: Yes

    ED: Say you wanted to fill what was specified in the 'd' attribute
    ... if you wanted to fill the path with something with full fonts
    you wouldn't be able to do that

    CL: Suppose you do a font like Jurassic Park your path on the outer
    thing with red bits
    ... and do that for loads of text
    ... for each occurrence of the character you have a hidden tree
    ... multiple copies of this arbitrary content

    ED: I'd suggest it inherits from document tree

    CL: So you mean like a current colour?

    ED: Similar
    ... the question is what properties you want there
    ... and applies

    CL: Colour

    ED: Fill, stroke
    ... that would be possible and would make it much simpler

    <ChrisL> They tend to be used for short, decorative, one-off text
    strings. Kerning, glyph shapes may be modified for the one pieve of

    <ChrisL> They can be used for less common languages.

    <ChrisL> The glyphs don't have the same constraints that TT/OT
    glyphs have, in terms of placement of control points, winding rule,
    avoidance of overlap and self-intersection. They can mix cubics,
    quadratics, and straight line segments as needed.

    <ChrisL> In other words, if you can draw it, you can make it a
    glyph. And the SVG engine can already render it because it already
    knows about paths, fill, stroke, opacity etc.

    <ChrisL> Of course, the temptation is to just draw something which
    looks, visually, like text. SVG gives the option to make it real,
    searchable, accessible and updatable text, for very little more

    ED: I guess it would be nice to style the colours in the text based
    on where they are used

    <ChrisL> from dev-tech-svg@lists.mozilla.org

    CM: Some body to suggested to solve that use case
    ... you could stick an attribute on graphical content?

    CL: Why would do that?

    JW: I have a reason for not doing that
    ... is you can't select it
    ... what if I want to select one word out of three word heading?

    DS: You could essentially do it as a ligature

    JW: It makes it different to the rest of the text behaves

    CM: You could break it down into logical blocks, words, sections,

    JW: You can do it as separate words or text
    ... then you're saying this graphic is this word
    ... then how do you join them together
    ... so when you search for it, it is found

    DS: Logical and visual order can be abused even with regular text

    CL: I was remembering that Vincent Hardy asked what's the use case
    for all this SVG stuff
    ... why not use a single path
    ... he said unless we do it that way SVG will not be used
    ... his argument was persuasive
    ... then the guy from Kodak
    ... said we've got a use case that can only done in SVG and not in
    True Type
    ... after a while Vincent Hardy did see the use cases and started
    making content

    DS: [Draws diagram on board]
    ... you can't do that as an SVG font

    ED: Yes you can

    DS: This is something that is a one off thing
    ... and you don't want to spend the time and energy adjusting
    ... to get it readable

    CL: It would be work
    ... I agree
    ... but it could be done

    DS: My point is this is something you can not do with OpenType
    ... how is this different form a ligature

    <anthony> JW: ROC is asking for give me the use cases

    CL: He's collecting the use cases
    ... and Alex D has chipped in with support

    JW: It's obvious for the use cases that the majority of them are
    catered for by WOFF
    ... ROC just wants to know have we pretty much covered all the cases
    that people want to handle
    ... and whether it should be put as a priority
    ... That's what I'd like to hear is the use cases
    ... you have all this power to make anything a glyph

    <ChrisL> typography teaching with serifs, verticals

    JW: but I want to see why people want to do things that can't be do
    in WOFF or OpenType

    <ChrisL> glyphs with icicles in blue-and-white, with font whatever
    color is wanted

    <ChrisL> nimated drawing fonts for chinese

    DS: I want to do a header and it has blue with icicles

    <ChrisL> scripted distressed fonts

    JW: I think we should try and collect a page
    ... with graphical examples

    <ChrisL> illuminated glyphs

    <ChrisL> jurassic park font with red inlay

    DS: People when doing layouts with glyphs
    ... [draws a diagram with Oprah W]

    JW: You'd want examples that don't raise too many examples
    ... that drawing raises too many questions

    <heycam> Scribe: Jonathan

    <heycam> ScribeNick: jwatt

    DS: we should highlight what SVG fonts are good for

    s/too many exmples/too many distracting questions/

    <fat_tony> Scribe: Anthony

    <fat_tony> ScribeNick: fat_tony

    <ChrisL> Erik van Blokland


      [16] http://people.mozilla.com/~jkew/woff/woff-2009-09-16.html

    <ChrisL> [17]http://www.robofab.com/

      [17] http://www.robofab.com/

    <ed> [that is in relation to SVG Fonts having a DOM and being
    editable that way clientside]

    <ChrisL> [18]http://www.fontlab.com/python/

      [18] http://www.fontlab.com/python/

    <ChrisL> robofog [19]http://typophile.com/node/13759?

      [19] http://typophile.com/node/13759?

    CM: So out of this we need use case on a Wiki pages
    ... so who is going to do this?

    JW: Whoever has examples or ideas of what people want to do
    ... so you could animate the stroke order of Asian characters
    ... for a tutorial

    AG: Someone will have to go through the minutes and put examples up
    on the wiki

    <jwatt> put use case ideas here:
    [20]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG_Font_Use_Cases ?

      [20] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG_Font_Use_Cases

    JW: Is that URL ok?
    ... problem is the interest group can't edit that

    AG: so if we want input from them that's no good

    <jwatt> ok, so
    [21]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/IG/wiki/SVG_Font_Use_Cases then?

      [21] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/IG/wiki/SVG_Font_Use_Cases

    <jwatt> the IG wiki is open to the public to make accounts, so
    anyone could add their ideas

    AG: I think we should get the SVG IG to give us use cases

Summary of Action Items

    [End of minutes]

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Found Date: 26 Sep 2009
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