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Minutes, 28 October 2009 SVG WG telcon

From: Anthony Grasso <anthony.grasso@cisra.canon.com.au>
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 19:23:04 +1100
Message-ID: <4AE7FF68.908@cisra.canon.com.au>
To: www-svg@w3.org
http://www.w3.org/2009/10/28-svg-minutes.html

---

    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                    SVG Working Group Teleconference

28 Oct 2009

    See also: [2]IRC log

       [2] http://www.w3.org/2009/10/28-svg-irc

Attendees

    Present
           ed, Doug_Schepers, anthony, jwatt

    Regrets
    Chair
           Erik

    Scribe
           anthony

Contents

      * [3]Topics
          1. [4]Telcon Times
          2. [5]SVG Full 1.1 Marathon
          3. [6]Rendering Order and Z-Index proposal
          4. [7]list collection
          5. [8]CSS pseudo classes for <a>
      * [9]Summary of Action Items
      _________________________________________________________



    <trackbot> Date: 28 October 2009

    <ed> [10]http://mcc.id.au/2007/03/telcon/

      [10] http://mcc.id.au/2007/03/telcon/

    <scribe> Scribe: anthony

Telcon Times

    DS: I see 20:00 UTC

    ED: That would be 21:00 for Chris and me

    AG: That would be 8:00am following day for me

    DS: Marked 18:30 on Monday as bad
    ... no wait just double checking
    ... we talked about 19:00 to 20:30 UTC
    ... Chris marked 19:00 to 20:30 UTC as best and then good
    ... for him that would be 20:00 to 21:30 UTC + 1

    ED: I would prefer to start 20:30 UTC + 1

    <ed> ...or better still 21:00 UTC+1

    DS: Chris has that for Monday and Thursday as good and best
    ... for me that would be
    ... 15:00 my time

    AG: So for me that would be 7am the following day which is fine

    DS: Starting at 20:00 UTC and going for an hour and a half
    ... one thing Chris said wanted to have a block of time
    ... before and after
    ... for getting together to do work
    ... we could have this as an understood convention
    ... that this is going on
    ... and is time to use for actions
    ... just a convention to follow, more for him
    ... I'll probably do the same thing

    ED: Did we want to go for two telcons or one

    DS: I think we should go for two
    ... so lets go ahead and block off those times
    ... just incase

    ED: That would be Monday and Thursday 20:00 UTC

    RESOLUTION: We will change telephone conference times to Monday and
    Thursday 20:00 UTC

    <scribe> ACTION: Erik to Email the change of telephone conference
    times to the group and update the wiki page with the new times
    [recorded in
    [11]http://www.w3.org/2009/10/28-svg-minutes.html#action01]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2687 - Email the change of telephone
    conference times to the group and update the wiki page with the new
    times [on Erik Dahlström - due 2009-11-04].

    DS: Chris and I will not be at the telcon next week
    ... because we will be at TPAC

    ED: So the new times will be active the week after next
    ... I think it's Monday 9th
    ... Doug you will make sure Zakim knows the new times as well?

    DS: I'll change that now

SVG Full 1.1 Marathon

    ED: Should we start off with having a telcon
    ... or is it fine to do the work normal office hours?
    ... for me it will be fine to have a telcon at the time we usually
    have
    ... just to start off

    DS: I'm not fussed either way

    ED: Try to be available on IRC and try to be available for a small
    telcon will be good
    ... I pretty much know what I need to do anyway
    ... I thought I'd move some of the tests from the old errata
    location
    ... to the test suite
    ... we have some tests there that cover some things that are not
    tested at the moment
    ... we need to do some more reviewing of tests
    ... and make sure the Java binding appendix goes in

    AG: Do we want the svgweb version to be available as a local version
    only or as a web version or both?

    ED: It would be convenient to have the svgweb version as an online
    reference
    ... if you have time you can do both

Rendering Order and Z-Index proposal

    ED: I guess we could discuss it but Chris and JWatt are not here

    DS: I saw JWatt's proposal
    ... and it seemed reasonable
    ... I'm not totally convinced it covers all the use cases we have
    ... Andrew's doesn't seem like it has effective preventions for
    abuse
    ... JWatt's provide a consistent method for resolving complicated
    cases
    ... I think that if we do this
    ... we should caution people to use this sparingly
    ... and talk about cases with hit testing

    ED: cases I've seen this pop up is pseudo 3D

    DS: We should also think of this in the context of 3D Transforms
    ... we should look at tightly integrating this with 3D Transforms
    ... I personally like the idea that z-index would be the name of the
    property
    ... I think people who are using z-index from HTML and CSS will know
    what they are looking for

    ED: Being able to move elements in the tree
    ... without taking them out of the tree
    ... is useful
    ... it gives you z-index type benefits for some operations

    DS: I think it's orthogonal, both are useful

    ED: It doesn't complicate the rendering model
    ... but I guess people want z-index anyway

    DS: It only works when using scripting
    ... this sounds like something for DOM 4, like what happens when you
    move an element - do you reload it
    ... I think the best thing to do is move forward on z-index with the
    CSS
    ... this is something to think about this for 3D Transforms anyway
    ... when you are structuring documents specifying things in z-index
    can be very useful
    ... we should stay what happens in the default case that when a
    transform z puts something behind something else

    ED: The proposal from JWatt is that being put into spec text?

    JW: Would it be better to put it into something
    ... instead of it's own stand alone document
    ... seems a bit weird to have a single property in it's own document

    DS: Let's say that we have this single property defined if an
    implementer wanted to do SVG 1.1 + this
    ... that would permit them to do so
    ... they could say we implement SVG 1.1 and this

    JW: What's the difference to them taking it out of a spec
    ... and saying they just do that
    ... feature?

    DS: People will want very clear conformance criteria to say they
    support a particular spec

    JW: As an implementer I can see the bits and I put it together
    ... but as an author it's difficult
    ... having picking and choosing things can make things worse
    ... for example people might just implement it because it's part of
    spec

    DS: What about putting it into 3D Transforms?

    JW: Well I'm not opposed to having it as separate spec or putting it
    somewhere
    ... I just don't see how it's going to be easier to comment on

    DS: The more I think about it I think it belongs in compositing

    ED: Because it affects the rendering model
    ... it should go into render concepts

    DS: Certainly that's where it should go in 2.0

    AG: [rambles on about defining a rendering model spec to bring all
    the work together]

    ED: Do we want to start the rendering concepts spec right away
    ... or do we need to something first?

    DS: I think that is a very useful level
    ... start with the rendering model from 1.2
    ... reconcile that with 1.1
    ... put in rendering index

    RESOLUTION: We will start writing a rendering concepts specification
    detailing the rendering model

    <scribe> ACTION: Jonathan to Begin authoring the rendering concepts
    specification [recorded in
    [12]http://www.w3.org/2009/10/28-svg-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2688 - Begin authoring the rendering
    concepts specification [on Jonathan Watt - due 2009-11-04].

list collection

    DS: right now you create a list collection and you put it into the
    newest collection

    JW: I sent two replies to that
    ... did you see them?

    DS: I only saw one of them

    ED: Forgot to CC Doug
    ... I would like this feedback to go to the public list

    JW: We plan to implement what the spec says
    ... probably do it at the same time we do animation for lists
    ... code needs to be rewritten for animaiton

    ED: Doing live objects and removal of objects from previous lists
    ... there's no extra costs
    ... you do one you get the other one free

    JW: My opinion you do it live
    ... you take one matrix from one list and put it into another list
    then you have two elements using the same matrix
    ... you have to tell both elements when one changes
    ... so if using hundreds of elements this can be a performance hit

    DS: Seems like you guys both agreed that it's better to do it this
    way

CSS pseudo classes for <a>

    DS: Do you guys agree that CSS pseudo classes should be supported in
    SVG?
    ... even if they aren't

    ED: They are in Opera
    ... and in FireFox too

    JW: Just consistency in the web platform

    ED: It's a bug if it doesn't work

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: Erik to Email the change of telephone conference times
    to the group and update the wiki page with the new times [recorded
    in [13]http://www.w3.org/2009/10/28-svg-minutes.html#action01]
    [NEW] ACTION: Jonathan to Begin authoring the rendering concepts
    specification [recorded in
    [14]http://www.w3.org/2009/10/28-svg-minutes.html#action02]

    [End of minutes]
      _________________________________________________________


     Minutes formatted by David Booth's [15]scribe.perl version 1.135
     ([16]CVS log)
     $Date: 2009/10/28 08:21:37 $
      _________________________________________________________

      [15] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
      [16] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

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Found Date: 28 Oct 2009
Guessing minutes URL: [18]http://www.w3.org/2009/10/28-svg-minutes.html
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Received on Wednesday, 28 October 2009 08:23:48 GMT

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