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Fwd: Minutes, SVG Telcon, 23 Nov 2009

From: Jeff Schiller <codedread@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 13:17:55 -0600
Message-ID: <da131fde0911251117s4bc22561ob67115ba956a510b@mail.gmail.com>
To: www-svg <www-svg@w3.org>
 <shepazu> shepazu: Jeff may not have considered the issue of the
 namespace of an element when he criticized using createElement as an
 element method

I assume you mean that createElement() as an element method would
never need to have a namespace argument.  Yes, I can see that - but I
still think that tweaking existing methods (createElement,
createElementNS) is better than inventing new methods UNLESS you plan
to have these new methods at the DOM Core level so that HTML coders
can use them too (not sure if that was the intention).

Even then it will be harder to re-train people and will be confusing
to tell them when to use Document.createElement() and
Element.createElement().

What I don't want though is different ways of creating SVG elements
than creating HTML elements ... thus my leaning towards both existing
techniques of innerHTML and document.createElement/NS.

Jeff


On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 12:46 PM, Doug Schepers <schepers@w3.org> wrote:
> Hi, SVG Folks-
>
> Here are the minutes for the SVG WG telcon of 23 Nov 2009:
>
>  http://www.w3.org/2009/11/23-svg-minutes.html
>
> Or as text below:
>
>   [1]W3C
>
>      [1] http://www.w3.org/
>
>                               - DRAFT -
>
>                   SVG Working Group Teleconference
>
> 23 Nov 2009
>
>   See also: [2]IRC log
>
>      [2] http://www.w3.org/2009/11/23-svg-irc
>
> Attendees
>
>   Present
>          ed, Shepazu, jwatt, Chris_Lilley, [IPcaller], anthony
>
>   Regrets
>   Chair
>          ed
>
>   Scribe
>          anthony
>
> Contents
>
>     * [3]Topics
>         1. [4]SVG 1.1 2nd Ed
>         2. [5]list activity
>         3. [6]DOM constructors
>     * [7]Summary of Action Items
>     _________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>   <trackbot> Date: 23 November 2009
>
>   \me zakim, drop shepazu
>
>   <scribe> scribenick: shepazu
>
> SVG 1.1 2nd Ed
>
>   <ed> [8]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/products/1
>
>      [8] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/products/1
>
>   <ed> 12 open issues, 22 open actions
>
>   issue-2013?
>
>   <trackbot> ISSUE-2013 -- Percentages in clipPath/pattern/filter/mask
>   unintuitive -- OPEN
>
>   <trackbot> [9]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2013
>
>      [9] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2013
>
>   <ChrisL> issue-2013?
>
>   <trackbot> ISSUE-2013 -- Percentages in clipPath/pattern/filter/mask
>   unintuitive -- OPEN
>
>   <trackbot> [10]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2013
>
>     [10] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2013
>
>   <ed> moved to SVG Core 2.0
>
>   Resolution: we will move this to SVG 2.0
>
>   issue-2017?
>
>   <trackbot> ISSUE-2017 -- Find sane values for getSubStringLength and
>   selectSubString -- OPEN
>
>   <trackbot> [11]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2017
>
>     [11] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2017
>
>   <ed> ACTION-2325?
>
>   <trackbot> ACTION-2325 -- Doug Schepers to propose wording and
>   examples for ISSUE-2107 -- due 2008-10-30 -- CLOSED
>
>   <trackbot> [12]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2325
>
>     [12] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2325
>
>   <ed>
>   [13]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008OctDec/023
>   9.html
>
>     [13]
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008OctDec/0239.html
>
>   <ed> [14]http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-svg-minutes.html#action02
>
>     [14] http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-svg-minutes.html#action02
>
>   ed: heycam didn't see a strong argument either way
>   ... what should we do with this? close it or take it up again?
>
>   jwatt: acid3 depends on this behavior?
>
>   ed: it did at one time
>   ... we did change the behavior in the spec for the better
>
>   <ed>
>   [15]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/changes.html#TextCh
>   apter
>
>     [15]
> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/changes.html#TextChapter
>
>   shepazu: we might look at this more closely in SVG 2.0
>
>   ed: right
>
>   <ChrisL> i think its closed, for 1.1
>
>   jwatt: the current errata makes sense to me
>
>   resolution: close the issue
>
>   issue-2071?
>
>   <trackbot> ISSUE-2071 -- potential security hole involving
>   pointer-events, filters, foreignObject, cross-origin IFRAMEs, and
>   elementFromPoint -- OPEN
>
>   <trackbot> [16]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2071
>
>     [16] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2071
>
>   resolution: move to SVG 2.0
>
>   issue-2113?
>
>   <trackbot> ISSUE-2113 -- animate-elem-35 -- OPEN
>
>   <trackbot> [17]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2113
>
>     [17] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2113
>
>   <ed> ISSUE-2213?
>
>   <trackbot> ISSUE-2213 -- Some issues in the definition of
>   suspendRedraw/unsuspendRedraw/forceRedraw -- OPEN
>
>   <trackbot> [18]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2213
>
>     [18] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2213
>
>   resolution: defer to SVG 2.0
>
>   issue-2217?
>
>   <trackbot> ISSUE-2217 -- How units are resolved on an SVGLength is
>   not defined -- RAISED
>
>   <trackbot> [19]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2217
>
>     [19] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2217
>
>   Resolution: move to SVG 2.0
>
>   issue-2219?
>
>   <trackbot> ISSUE-2219 -- Missing test coverage for SVG 1.1
>   properties -- RAISED
>
>   <trackbot> [20]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2219
>
>     [20] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2219
>
>   jwatt: we should put this off until we decide on the new test format
>
>   Resolution: resolve in SVG 2.0
>
>   issue-2259?
>
>   <trackbot> ISSUE-2259 -- Inconsistent use of <uri> symbol -- RAISED
>
>   <trackbot> [21]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2259
>
>     [21] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2259
>
>   <ed>
>   [22]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/masking.html#ClipPa
>   thProperty
>
>     [22]
> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/masking.html#ClipPathProperty
>
>   ed: didn't we resolve this in second edition?
>
>   ChrisL: basically, this is rolling in changes we made in SVGT1.2
>   ... it should be easy to do
>
>   <scribe> ACTION: ChrisL to make funcURI consistent, and update tests
>   [recorded in
>   [23]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/23-svg-minutes.html#action01]
>
>   <trackbot> Created ACTION-2697 - Make funcURI consistent, and update
>   tests [on Chris Lilley - due 2009-11-30].
>
>   <ed>
>   [24]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/types.html#Interfac
>   eSVGViewSpec
>
>     [24]
> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/types.html#InterfaceSVGViewSpec
>
>   <ChrisL> issue-2263?
>
>   <trackbot> ISSUE-2263 -- The attributes on the SVGViewSpec interface
>   are underspecified -- RAISED
>
>   <trackbot> [25]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2263
>
>     [25] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2263
>
>   shepazu: we will have to reexamine this in the context of the new
>   SVG DOM API, anyway
>
>   Resolution: defer to SVG 2.0
>
>   issue-2294?
>
>   <trackbot> ISSUE-2294 -- Adding an animated length attribute into a
>   baseval length list -- RAISED
>
>   <trackbot> [26]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2294
>
>     [26] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2294
>
>   jwatt: I was going to write an email about this...
>   ... maybe we need some custom error about removing items from the
>   original list (readonly)
>   ... maybe we should have a "copy" method?
>   ... let's address this in the new DOM API
>
>   Resolution: move to SVG 2.0
>
>   issue-2299?
>
>   <trackbot> ISSUE-2299 -- Text on a path layout rules unclear wrt
>   startpoint-on-the-path and text-anchor -- RAISED
>
>   <trackbot> [27]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2299
>
>     [27] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2299
>
>   ChrisL: I don't think they are contradictory, they seem to be saying
>   the same thing in different ways
>   ... it's using "start point" for 2 different things...
>   ... it's talking about shifting the initial start point
>
>   ed: it's ambiguous enough that implementations all do different
>   things
>   ... but I'm not sure it's critical for SVG 1.1 2nd ed.
>
>   shepazu: I want this fixed because it's important... could we start
>   a 3rd edition errata in addition to SVG 2.0?
>
>   ChrisL: we could do... we need to test all of this better, too
>
>   ed: one way to start off easy is to have a straight line as the
>   textPath for tests that describe the start point
>
>   ChrisL: good idea
>
>   resolution: keep as SVG 1.1 3rd edition errata, but duplicate for
>   SVG 2.0, to make sure it's addressed in both
>
>   issue-2301?
>
>   <trackbot> ISSUE-2301 -- Text on a path layout rules unclear wrt
>   startpoint-on-the-path and text-anchor (svg2) -- RAISED
>
>   <trackbot> [28]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2301
>
>     [28] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2301
>
>   ed: 23 pending actions left
>
>   s23 pending actions left/23 pending actions left left left
>
>   action-2077?
>
>   <trackbot> ACTION-2077 -- Erik Dahlström to test implementations for
>   percentage values in clipPath, etc. -- due 2008-07-03 -- OPEN
>
>   <trackbot> [29]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2077
>
>     [29] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2077
>
>   action-2203?
>
>   <trackbot> ACTION-2203 -- Doug Schepers to add to the 1.1 Full
>   errata that the initial value for the root overflow property is
>   scroll rather than hidden -- due 2008-09-30 -- OPEN
>
>   <trackbot> [30]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2203
>
>     [30] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2203
>
>   action-2404?
>
>   <trackbot> ACTION-2404 -- Doug Schepers to add errata item for root
>   overflow -- due 2009-01-22 -- CLOSED
>
>   <trackbot> [31]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2404
>
>     [31] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2404
>
> list activity
>
>   ed: discussion about transforms, getIntersectionList, DOM
>   constructors, image clarification, z-index
>
>   ChrisL: I wonder if alex addressed this to their satisfaction?
>   ... a good example might help
>
>   <ChrisL> suppose a filter brings in a greyscale image with feimage,
>   then we do an rgb fecomponenttransfer. that should work
>
>   <ChrisL> it wont give an error
>
>   <ChrisL> so that is what "as it its promoted to RGBA" means
>
>   ChrisL: when we say, "implement as if...", then things that fall out
>   of the model still have to work
>   ... action to respond to image clarification email with concrete
>   example
>
>   <scribe> ACTION: ChrisL to respond to image clarification email with
>   concrete example [recorded in
>   [32]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/23-svg-minutes.html#action02]
>
>   <trackbot> Created ACTION-2698 - Respond to image clarification
>   email with concrete example [on Chris Lilley - due 2009-11-30].
>
>   ed: anthony addressed the transforms issues
>   ... Dr. Olaf pointed to his older email... did we address this?
>
>   anthony: not sure
>
>   ChrisL: Dr. Olaf raised a good point, CSS didn't consider animation
>   when they specified angles, which need to be normalized, and since
>   they now have animation this affects them too... we should raise
>   this with the CSS WG
>
>   anthony: I'll take a crack at replying to Dr. Olaf
>
> DOM constructors
>
>   <anthony> scribe: anthony
>
>   DS: Just started off with basically describing
>   ... what we had proposed
>   ... because he didn't read the proposal page
>   ... just ready the 'what sort of problems we have' page
>   ... he also proposed that we use the innerHTML method for larger
>   document fragments
>   ... and Brois said that innerHTML has been optimised because
>   browsers have to parse already
>   ... so that's one thing they optermise for
>   ... Boris seemed to be have mixed responses about sending in a
>   property bag object for element constructors would help the
>   performance
>   ... I definitely under the impression from taking to implementers
>   that setting attributes individually was a huge performance hit
>
>   <shepazu> ChrisL: if it's done right, it should be a performance
>   gain, and is never a performance hit
>
>   CL: It can be an atomic operation
>
>   <shepazu> shepazu: and it's much nicer for authoring
>
>   DS: It's much nicer for authors
>
>   <shepazu> shepazu: Jeff may not have considered the issue of the
>   namespace of an element when he criticized using createElement as an
>   element method
>
>   <shepazu> shepazu: jwatt, what's your impression?
>
>   <shepazu> jwatt: boris seemed to refute some of the performance
>   points that Jeff pointed to
>
>   <shepazu> ... but it's about ease of authoring, not so much
>   performance
>
>   <shepazu> ... boris says it's hard to predict performance
>
>   <ed>
>   [33]http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#html-fragment-parsing
>   -algorithm
>
>     [33]
> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#html-fragment-parsing-algorithm
>
>   <shepazu> ed: have we verified that innerHTML would work with SVG?
>
>   <shepazu> ... I'm reading it, and it doesn't seem great for SVG
>
>   <shepazu> jwatt: I can test it, don't know offhand
>
>   <shepazu> ACTION: jwatt to test innerHTML for applicability to SVG
>   [recorded in
>   [34]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/23-svg-minutes.html#action03]
>
>   <trackbot> Created ACTION-2699 - to test innerHTML for applicability
>   to SVG [on Jonathan Watt - due 2009-11-30].
>
>   <shepazu> shepazu: speaking of this, what's the standard way of
>   doing ASV's printNode?
>
>   <shepazu> jwatt: I have a wrapper
>
>   <jwatt> [35]http://www.mozilla.org/projects/svg/wrappers.js
>
>     [35] http://www.mozilla.org/projects/svg/wrappers.js
>
>   <shepazu> ed: maybe for innerHTML, it needs to be put into the
>   foreign-content mode...
>
>   <shepazu> ... otherwise you have to wrap everything in <svg>
>
>   <ChrisL> Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US;
>   rv:1.9.3a1pre) Gecko/20091122 Minefield/3.7a1pre
>
>   <ed> <html><svg id="foo">...</svg><script>$("foo").innerHTML="<rect
>   width='100' height='100' fill='green'/></html>
>
>   <shepazu> ed: anything that conflicts with HTML element names might
>   cause a problem
>
>   <ed> so test <font>, <video>, <audio>, <textArea>... any others?
>
>   <shepazu> jwatt: about the F2F... I'm probably not coming
>
>   <shepazu> ... mozilla thinks 4 meetings a year is too frequent
>
>   <shepazu> shepazu: actually, I think it's 3 meetings a year now
>
>   <shepazu> shepazu: maybe we should examine who would be able to
>   attend
>
>   <shepazu> ed: what about relocating it?
>
>   <shepazu> trackbot, end telcon
>
> Summary of Action Items
>
>   [NEW] ACTION: ChrisL to make funcURI consistent, and update tests
>   [recorded in
>   [36]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/23-svg-minutes.html#action01]
>   [NEW] ACTION: ChrisL to respond to image clarification email with
>   concrete example [recorded in
>   [37]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/23-svg-minutes.html#action02]
>   [NEW] ACTION: jwatt to test innerHTML for applicability to SVG
>   [recorded in
>   [38]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/23-svg-minutes.html#action03]
>
>   [End of minutes]
>
>
>
Received on Wednesday, 25 November 2009 19:18:29 GMT

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