W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-svg@w3.org > July 2008

Re: dilemma of cache: two types of image

From: Jonathan Chetwynd <j.chetwynd@btinternet.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 14:15:43 +0100
Cc: www-svg <www-svg@w3.org>
Message-Id: <257AB86F-A160-46F8-B3C4-E493FD65E1F8@btinternet.com>
To: David Woolley <forums@david-woolley.me.uk>
David,

copyright is a red-herring, all the images we use are public domain.

furthermore those people who provide images in feeds, presumably  
understand and intend them for repurposing by 'others'.
afaik there are no feed readers that display images.

similar arguments apply to your ethical case.

the fact is that our users and many people would benefit from being  
able to simply embed these types of information into their own  
resources.
hence the development of feeds...

regards


Jonathan Chetwynd

j.chetwynd@btinternet.com
http://www.openicon.org/

+44 (0) 20 7978 1764


On 27 Jul 2008, at 21:29, David Woolley wrote:

>
> Jonathan Chetwynd wrote:
>
> Firstly this isn't really specific to SVG and the concepts could do  
> with
> clarifying in a more general context before one tries to consider any
> SVG specifics.
>
>> the naive user may seek and find a picture of the sun, they copy and
>
> I think you are using "naive" as a euphemism.  I suspect you are  
> really
> talking about people who have difficulty thinking about times other  
> than
> now and places other than here, and would have difficulties with
> abstractions that involve these dimensions, like weather and  
> national dress.
>
>> paste it into a document, and send it to a friend.
>
> I think you are talking about copying links, rather than copying the
> images.  This whole problem seems to be about the concept of  
> indirection.
>
> One problem that you have is that, without explicit permission, really
> copying the resource is illegal and copying an image link (when one
> divorces it from any message that the host site is conveying, or the  
> surrounding advertising) is, at least, unethical (I'm not a lawyer,  
> but I suspect one might be able to make a case that it constitutes  
> theft of service).
>
> (Even if the image is static, you may find that the site takes  
> countermeasures and actually serves a different, possibly  
> embarrassing, resource, when one accesses it out of context.  Such  
> countermeasures might be introduced at any time.  Quite a common  
> tactic with HTML is to force you to the home page if you enter with  
> a deep link.)
>
>> when it arrives it is a cloud...
>
> There seem to be two basic approaches.
>
> 1) Supervision by someone who does understand copyright and  
> abstraction.
>
> 2) Additional meta data to indicate copyright licensing and some  
> measure of abstraction (maybe more than one dimension).
>
> The problem with the second option is that most authors won't use  
> either, and, at least with respect to copyright, browsers don't  
> enforce the default copyright permissions, i.e. they allow you to  
> copy a link by default even though copyright requires explicit  
> permission.
>
> My guess is that only those people likely to give an explicit  
> copyright permission, are likely to provide abstraction level  
> metadata.
>
> Moreover, I think those who permitted use and were prepared to  
> provide metadata, would also provide libraries of static images that  
> would not need the metadata.  I think they would also be likely to  
> use client side redirection to ensure that the URL that actually got  
> displayed was always static.
>
> I'm also not convinced that you can define a unique ordering amongst  
> abstraction levels, and given that all images are abstractions, no  
> resource will have zero abstraction.  Even static images can change  
> because the author thinks they have found an image that better  
> represents the concept that the image conveys.  Unless the person  
> "borrowing" the image used in it with identical meaning and in an  
> identical visual context, the result may no longer be valid.
>
> Although you introduced caching, I don't really see that this has  
> anything to do with caching.  In an ideal world one might infer  
> abstraction in the time dimension by cache control metadata, but in  
> practice designers seem to have rejected the idea of caching, and  
> try to completely defeat it for primary content.  That is often to  
> ensure that different advertisements are served each time, rather  
> than because the editorial content is time varying - although time  
> varying content does encourage repeat visits, so is often sought out.
>> if this explanation is not sufficient, please follow the screencast:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_GAB3jRj6U
>
> I don't have Flash on the Linux system.
>
> -- 
> David Woolley
> Emails are not formal business letters, whatever businesses may want.
> RFC1855 says there should be an address here, but, in a world of spam,
> that is no longer good advice, as archive address hiding may not work.
>
>
Received on Monday, 28 July 2008 13:16:28 GMT

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