RE: Issue 1: Font-weight and headings
Heh. The "Microsoft plot" theory. I love it. :^)
Yes, our internal default stylesheet for various elements is hard-coded
into IE4 - for reasons of performance and user-proof rendering. It is
fairly easy, however, for me to whip through the source and come up with
the default renderings, translated into CSS. I would be personally very
supportive of coming up with the "UA default stylesheet" - however,
there are a couple of problems. First of all, due to the
inheritance/cascading weirdness in IE3 and Navigator described in this
thread, it will be odd to describe their rendering in terms of a
stylesheet, since it won't cascade like a stylesheet. Second,
font-sizes are a little strange to describe, since for us they scale
when you select a different font set. This fits beautifully if you use
the named keywords ('large', 'small', etc.) for us - these behave just
like <FONT SIZE=> sizes in IE4 (and I think IE3 as well), which scale -
but Netscape followed the suggestion of the CSS spec to use a scaling
factor of 1.5 between adjacent sizes, which doesn't match. Barring
that, you have to use point sizes - which are only true if the user has
the "medium" set selected.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Todd Fahrner [SMTP:firstname.lastname@example.org]
> Sent: Sunday, July 27, 1997 5:26 PM
> To: E. Stephen Mack; email@example.com
> Subject: Re: Issue 1: Font-weight and headings
> At 4:01 PM -0700 7/27/97, E. Stephen Mack wrote:
> >Todd Fahrner <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:
> >> [...] So what do y'all say we harness some of the smarts and
> >> energy here to produce an exhaustively-specified "default"
> >> stylesheet for all HTML 4 elements? [...]
> >> If not us, who?
> heh. If we do it, there's a chance that multiple vendors will latch on
> incorporate it into documentation. If MS does it, it will be a plot.
> think CSS is a MS plot. That and XML. MS can have all the good ideas
> itself, it seems, as most anything they do becomes a plot that others
> resist. <g>
> >Seriously, IE 4.0 pp2 must have its default style sheet
> >embedded *somewhere* within it. It's clear that IE's initial
> >values are outweighing inheritance, so these initial values
> >must be codified in an internal style sheet format somehow.
> >If this can be made available, then it will save us all the effort.
> Key phrase: "codified in an internal style sheet format somehow". Not
> >I agree with Todd that:
> >> Prudent CSS authors, hoping to avoid damaging interactions with
> >> style sheets, can link to this sheet (@import) as a base. It will
> >> easier and better to edit this sheet than to create new ones from
> >> scratch, complicating them incrementally as HTML content grows.
> >There will be some speed and compatibility issues to consider,
> >and it will be difficult to create a default style sheet that
> >works for IE 3.x and 4.x and Navigator 4.x. It's probably
> >worthwhile to ignore the various preview releases; it may
> >also be worth waiting until IE 4.0 is released.
> Legacy stuff can be scripted out of the loop if necessary. NS4 doesn't
> @import, so it takes care of itself. It shouldn't be pegged to IE4's
> release, as that might imply that it was custom-crafted for it. It
> shouldn't be.
> >The first issue that will be problematic is specifying a default
> >font size -- what units? What face? Perhaps this is one area
> >where we shouldn't have our "default" stylesheet make a declaration.
> 12-point Times is the default for <body>; 12-point Courier for <code>
> like elements. This stylesheet would be designed to be overridden in
> cascade (including user "appearance dialog" settings), so it doesn't
> matter what the initial values are.
> >If it's impossible to get one universal working style sheet,
> >then we'll have to resort to different versions and the use of
> >Todd's infamous script.
> The one universal stylesheet, again, will be beholden to no real
> implementation, but to the spec and to the pretty consistent
> rendering of plain HTML between NS and MS. If it breaks substandard
> browsers, then we'll know it's authentic. As for real world
> - that's for real-world hacks like the script to deal with. It will
> be useful to have an ideal base. I would think underdogs and newcomers
> the browser wars would appreciate it.
> >(Perhaps we can get the "default" style sheet to be stored at W3C
> >along with some other accepted "library" styles?)
> Todd Fahrner
> The printed page transcends space and time. The printed page, the
> infinitude of books, must be transcended. THE ELECTRO-LIBRARY.
> --El Lissitzky, 1923