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Re: [css-ui] Agenda request: Revive directional focus navigation properties

From: Leif Arne Storset <lstorset@opera.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2013 11:47:06 +0200
To: "Giuseppe Pascale" <giuseppep@opera.com>, "Daniel Davis" <ddavis@w3.org>
Cc: Tantek Çelik <tantek@cs.stanford.edu>, "www-style@w3.org" <www-style@w3.org>, "public-web-and-tv@w3.org" <public-web-and-tv@w3.org>
Message-ID: <op.wyw6ssjptmo5g6@laus>
Removing w3c-css-wg, seems redundant now.

> On 18/06/13 16:11, Giuseppe Pascale wrote:
>> On Mon, 17 Jun 2013 17:36:18 +0200, Tantek Çelik
>> <tantek@cs.stanford.edu> wrote:
>>> On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 6:28 AM, Leif Arne Storset
>>> <lstorset@opera.com> wrote:
>>>> Opera wants to revive CSS3 Basic User Interface's directional focus
>>>> navigation properties: nav-up, nav-down, nav-right, nav-left [0]. I'd
>>>> like
>>>> to get a resolution for that on Wednesday's telcon.
>>>
>>> Glad to hear that Opera is willing to put time and effort into
>>> advancing directional nav.
>>> However, I don't know of any new information that merits any new
>>> discussion of this topic.

On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 05:59:22 +0200, Daniel Davis <ddavis@w3.org> wrote:

> I was also surprised that these properties were dropped and can't seem
> to figure out why from reading the minutes[1] (other than references to
> them being broken). Is there a list of the nav-index problems and
> nav-left/right/up/down problems publicly available?

For (mostly) nav-index there's

http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css4-ui#nav-properties (also follow the link in  
that section)

I have this from Tantek's reply to my message on w3c-css-wg. I see now  
that not everything he wrote survived the move to www-style. I'm including  
the entirety of his response below.

-Leif

------- Forwarded message -------
From: "Tantek Çelik" <tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
To: "Leif Arne Storset" <lstorset@opera.com>
Cc: w3c-css-wg <w3c-css-wg@w3.org>, "Giuseppe Pascale"  
<giuseppep@opera.com>
Subject: Re: [css-ui] Agenda request: Revive directional focus navigation  
properties
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 17:36:18 +0200

Leif,

(aside: please feel free to repost/move this to the public www-style
list - I don't see anything in this thread that merits W3C member-only
discussion, you may simply reply to my email and cc: www-style if you
wish.)

The short answer is that directional navigation is not CR-exit-worthy,
not even close, hence it is being dropped from CSS3-UI, but kept for
consideration for CSS4-UI.

On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 6:28 AM, Leif Arne Storset <lstorset@opera.com>
wrote:
> Opera wants to revive CSS3 Basic User Interface's directional focus
> navigation properties: nav-up, nav-down, nav-right, nav-left [0]. I'd  
> like
> to get a resolution for that on Wednesday's telcon.

Glad to hear that Opera is willing to put time and effort into
advancing directional nav.
However, I don't know of any new information that merits any new
discussion of this topic.
See below for details/questions.


> Reasons: there are several implementations (Presto-based Opera and
> WebKit-based Samsung and LG browsers), they are in active use,

Are any of these downloadable / testable on the open web?

URLs to simulator downloads etc.?


> and HbbTV
> specifications depend on them.

Specification dependency is insufficient to exit CR, and thus
insufficient to keep a feature.


> The WG originally dropped them on 17 April
> together with nav-index, but nav-index has problems that nav-up,  
> nav-down,
> nav-right and nav-left do not have. So I think we had a "baby and  
> bathwater"
> moment. :)

Some different problems, some similar.

E.g. do you have nav-* tests you'd like to contribute?

If not, writing/contributing such tests would be one way Opera can
help "revive" the nav-* properties.


> (I should have brought this up before, mea culpa, but since the edits
> haven't been made yet and LC hasn't happened, I reckon it shouldn't delay
> anything to change this now.)

They're still "at risk", and the lack of publicly usable/downloadable
implementations / tests (for the many years that the spec was in CR)
has made it clear they're not CR-exit-worthy.


> In case anyone wonders about James Craig's objection to nav-index [1],  
> his
> issues either only apply to nav-index or are solvable using his suggested
> change.
>
> 0. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jun/0169.html
> 1. http://www.w3.org/mid/D04B020C-3D38-4385-BE94-7D54841EDFB2@apple.com

Thanks for that, I've added that to the wiki entry for CSS4-UI for nav
properties so we can look at applying those fixes:

http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css4-ui#nav-properties

Tantek
Received on Wednesday, 19 June 2013 09:48:09 UTC

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