W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-style@w3.org > June 2013

Re: Dropping nav-* properties?

From: Vickers, Mark <Mark_Vickers@cable.comcast.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 18:30:24 +0000
To: Giuseppe Pascale <giuseppep@opera.com>
CC: "www-style@w3.org" <www-style@w3.org>, "public-web-and-tv@w3.org" <public-web-and-tv@w3.org>
Message-ID: <C345F054BA4CA14BA9F5769F1602E2979FB9BAF8@PACDCEXMB12.cable.comcast.com>
On Jun 17, 2013, at 1:24 AM, Giuseppe Pascale <giuseppep@opera.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 12 Jun 2013 23:08:40 +0200, Vickers, Mark <Mark_Vickers@cable.comcast.com> wrote:
> 
>> Giuseppe,
>> 
>> We do, of course, absolutely require up, down, left right keys in TV and set-top box Web applications to support TV remotes. Regarding these specific CSS APIs:
>> 
>> - What are the benefits to the nav-* properties?
>> - What do the nav-* properties bring that cannot be done in other ways (HTML, JavaScript, DOM Event APIs, etc.)?
>> 
> 
> many things can be done in multiple ways, this doesn't mean we should drop all but one of them.

I agree. I should have said "are beneficial versus other ways" rather than "cannot be done in other ways".

> 
> Regardless of when they are useful compared to other techniques, if nav-up/down/left/right are not broken why removing them, considering they haven't been dropped but just moved to CSS level 4?

I agree. As has been pointed out, this brings up issues of what platforms are considered valid parts of the Web platform and which implementations are considered valid implementations.

> 
> Note also that my mail was a request for more details about the reason of them being dropped, as I couldn't find any specific info on it (a part from nav-index). Maybe the group has a very good reason to move them and I could agree with it, it's just that I couldn't find it.

I also think we should get an answer why useful APIs were pulled from the release, particularly when the group rightly anticipated that our community would be impacted.

> 
> /g
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> Thanks,
>> mav
>> 
>> On Jun 10, 2013, at 10:59 AM, Giuseppe Pascale <giuseppep@opera.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi all,
>>> while my request below for feedback and clarification went unanswered, I see that the group went ahead and decided to drop the nav-* properties [1].
>>> 
>>> AFAIK all the issues mentioned in the various threads are about nav-index. But as result all nav-* properties were dropped. Can you help me understand why? Are there any issues specific of the nav-up/down/left/right? If so, could you point me to that?
>>> 
>>> As mentioned before, the nav-up/down/left/right (but NOT nav-index) properties are currently actively used in the TV space, and referenced by public standards based on Web Standards. Note also that:
>>> 
>>> 1. they are used as a way to handle navigation done with a standard remote control (so not keyboard tab navigation)
>>> 2. they are implemented in TVs using Webkit as well as Opera/Presto based TVs.
>>> 
>>> Would be good to understand if there is any part of the spec that is NOT broken and can be kept in, to avoid forcing other groups to have to reference an old CSS drafts  (practice that W3C usually try to discourage)
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> 
>>> [1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Apr/0428.html
>>> 
>>> /g
>>> 
>>> On Mon, 08 Apr 2013 11:17:12 +0100, Giuseppe Pascale <giuseppep@opera.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hi Tantek,
>>>> I've just read your mail exchange with my colleague Mike [1][2][3] and I wanted to add few comments on that thread as well as extend the discussion to the Web&TV IG, as there could be other people that may have an opinion on this subject.
>>>> 
>>>> In short, the CSS Basic UI spec [4] mark nav-* properties as at risk, and you seem to agree they should be dropped.
>>>> 
>>>> As already mentioned by Mike in [1] and [3] , we (Opera) do recommend use of nav-* properties for our TV store Apps, and AFAIK so far we haven't received any complaint (this doesn't mean there are no issues of course, but at least we haven't heard of any)
>>>> 
>>>> Furthermore, as also mentioned by Mike, there are other specifications referencing CSS nav-* properties, namely HbbTV [5].
>>>> 
>>>> The HbbTV specification, although not aimed to the "Open Web", it's still a public specification and is currently supported in Europe by many retail devices (mostly TVs and STBs), not only Opera based but also Webkit based
>>>> 
>>>> Also in this case, I haven't heard (so far) any complaint from (Hbb)TV apps developers.
>>>> 
>>>> Given the pointers above, can you help me (us) understand what is the problem with css nav-* properties and why you want to drop them? As they seem to be used and supported by different browsers, would be possible to investigate more in details what is working (and what is not) and maybe drop only the problematic parts (if any)?
>>>> 
>>>> I appreciate you may have debated this at length before on the www-style list, but I was wondering if for the benefit of the web&tv folks you could summarize the issues and provide related pointers.
>>>> 
>>>> Also note that personally I haven't done an in depth analysis of the spec and/or the implementations out there, but I wanted to get this discussion started ASAP as the deadline for comments is already passed.
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> [1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2013Feb/0027.html
>>>> [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2013Feb/0036.html
>>>> [3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2013Feb/0037.html
>>>> [4] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-ui/
>>>> [5] http://hbbtv.org/pages/about_hbbtv/specification.php
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Giuseppe Pascale
>>> Product Manager TV & Connected Devices
>>> Opera Software
>>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Giuseppe Pascale
> Product Manager TV & Connected Devices
> Opera Software
Received on Monday, 17 June 2013 18:31:17 UTC

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