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Re: [css-counter-styles] japanese-informal counter style

From: MURAKAMI Shinyu <murakami@antenna.co.jp>
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2013 12:13:11 +0900
To: "Tab Atkins Jr." <jackalmage@gmail.com>
Cc: www-style list <www-style@w3.org>
Message-Id: <20130817121310.DEFC.C598BCD7@antenna.co.jp>
"Tab Atkins Jr." <jackalmage@gmail.com> wrote on 2013/08/16 2:45:39
> On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 3:52 AM, MURAKAMI Shinyu <murakami@antenna.co.jp> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I found some problem in the examples japanese-informal counter style.
> >
> > http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-counter-styles/#complex-cjk
> >
> >     japanese-informal
> >         Informal Japanese Kanji numbering (e.g., 一万一千百十一)
> >
> > "一万一千百十一" is not correct for Japanese informal style. It should be "一万千百十一".
> >
> >     EXAMPLE 12
> >     japanese-informal  〇  一  二  三  一十  一十一  九十九  一百  一百一  一万
> >
> > "一十" should be "十"
> > "一十一" should be "十一"
> > "一百" should be "百"
> > "一百一" should be "百一"
> >
> > These digit 1 "一" preceding the digit markers (十, 百, 千) should be dropped.
> > I think the following rule has a problem:
> >
> > http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-counter-styles/#extended-cjk
> >
> >     5. Drop ones:
> >       ◦ For the Japanese informal and Korean informal styles,
> >         if any of the digit markers are preceded by the digit 1,
> >         and that digit is not the first digit of the group,
> >         remove the digit (leave the digit marker).
> >
> > Here, "and that digit is not the first digit of the group" seems not necessary.
> >
> > I don't know about the Korean informal style, but seems it should be verified too.
> 
> These are the rules I was given by native speakers when I was writing
> the section.  I can dig up the emails if necessary.
> 
> Maybe there are just different styles taught across the country?

For Japanese informal style, 
"一十", "一十一", "一百", "一百一" are wrong, absolutely.
"一千" is sometimes used, especially "一千万円" (ten million yen) is 
often used rather than "千万円", but this case is exceptional and
not required for japanese-informal style.

I tested Excel's [Format Cells - Number - 漢数字/Japanese] and got 
"一万千百十一" for 11111. (See the attached screen shot)
I believe Excel's numbering is correct at least for Japanese styles.

The "Drop ones" rule should be rechecked. I'm not sure about Korean
(only have knowledge from Wikipedia "Korean numerals" etc.)
but in doubt with this rule, and 

      ◦ For Korean informal styles, if the value of the ten-thousands 
        group is 1, drop the digit (leave the digit marker). 

Only ten-thousands (萬) group? What about other groups (億, 兆)?
"leave the digit marker" should be "leave the group marker"?

Regards,

Shinyu Murakami
Antenna House
Received on Saturday, 17 August 2013 03:13:43 UTC

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