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RE: [css3-text] scoping line break controls, characters that disappear at the end of lines

From: Koji Ishii <kojiishi@gluesoft.co.jp>
Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 01:40:44 -0400
To: "Kang-Hao (Kenny) Lu" <kennyluck@csail.mit.edu>
CC: WWW Style <www-style@w3.org>, 'WWW International' <www-international@w3.org>, "Martin J. Dürst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>, Ambrose LI <ambrose.li@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A592E245B36A8949BDB0A302B375FB4E0D3C3C7FB1@MAILR001.mail.lan>
Thank you for the reply.

> From: Kang-Hao (Kenny) Lu [mailto:kennyluck@csail.mit.edu]
> > 1. YES on the beginning, NO on the end, and keep consecutive spaces together.
> > 2. YES on the beginning, YES on the end of line, and allow break between them.
> > 3. Variation of 1; allow only one ideographic space at the end, and ignore the rest.
> > :
> > I quickly looked at current behaviors[1]:
> > MS Word: #1
> > Adobe InDesign: #2
> > IE9: #1
> Based on your example, I don't think what IE9 does can be precisely described by 1. Note
> that "6" in example "12 6" and "7" in example
> "12 7" end up in the same position. Therefore, I think the correct description is "YES
> for the beginning of the first line, NO for the beginning for the rest of the lines". This is
> similar to how the spec says about the normal space (U+0020) except that there's
> difference in how the spaces at the beginning of the first line is handled.

Sorry, I found the description of #1 doesn't describe what I meant correctly. I meant:

4. No break before, YES on the beginning, NO on the end, can't appear after soft-break (because no break before)

This is still different from what you observed, but produces the same result.

I was thinking it's hard to distinguish between #4 and yours, but I found I can verify IE9 is #4 by setting contenteditable, and Word is #4 by selecting the paragraph.

> > Do you have an image where a line breaks before the honorific space?
> > I wonder if it still take up a space or not.
> It should. When the elementary taught about composition, we use grid paper and we were
> not taught about the "special behavior" that we should remove the space when it's at the
> beginning.
> But actually trying to find an example on a book might be very difficult. The editor might
> deliberately prevent honorific spaces from happening at the beginning of a line because it
> would otherwise be confused with indentation. I think this is just similar to the fact that it
> is not simple to find a punctuation at the beginning of a line in a book. Whether that is
> allowed is a bit debatable. Of course you can find an essay with punctuations at the
> beginning written on a grid paper by an elementary student.

It sounds like it should be "no break before" just like punctuation, no?

> In any case, I think this use isn't important enough to justify any change to spec. An author
> can use 'white-sapce: pre-wrap;' to preserve the honorific space when necessary.

I see. Japanese case doesn't work with pre-wrap though, because the behavior changes by where line wraps. Nobody implements ideal behavior JLTF recommends, but I think IE9 behavior works the best after the trade-offs, especially given honorific space has a workaround.

> Well, if this is what JLTF wants, as I said, I don't think honorific spaces are important
> enough to affect the decision, but I still wonder whether browsers besides IE9 are willing
> to implement this.

Hmm. We could put this at risk then.

I discussed this with a few Japanese publishers; all of them prefer spaces not appearing after soft-break, and it looks like honorific space has same preference. They consider, though, its importance isn't high enough to stop producing documents today. Either making this UA dependent, or defining IE9 behavior with at risk sounds reasonable to me.

Received on Friday, 4 May 2012 05:41:50 UTC

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