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[CSSWG] Minutes and Resolutions Telecon 2011-11-16

From: fantasai <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 14:53:06 -0800
Message-ID: <4ED410D2.40508@inkedblade.net>
To: "www-style@w3.org" <www-style@w3.org>
Summary:
   - RESOLVED: Do a meeting with the french community after-hours during
               the France f2f.
   - Reviewed status of all modules.
   - RESOLVED: Invite Ben Schwarz as an Invited Expert
   - RESOLVED: Publish a WD of GCPM
   - Assigned test suite owners to css3-background, transforms, multicol
   - ACTION fantasai and Kimberly to write a blog post about how to handle
            margins of multicol spanning elements' margins.

====== Full minutes below ======

Present:
   Rossen Atanassov
   Tab Atkins
   Kimberly Blessing
   Bert Bos
   Elika Etemad
   Simon Fraser
   Daniel Glazman
   John Jansen
   Brad Kemper
   Håkon Wium Lie
   Peter Linss
   Divya Manian (via IRC)
   Anton Prowse
   Florian Rivoal
   Daniel Weck

<RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/11/16-css-irc

Scribe: TabAtkins

Paris F2F
---------

   Daniel: We're meeting at the Paris f2f next year.
   Daniel: The org that offered hosting, to thank them we could organize
           a CSSWG meeting with the community there.
   Daniel: The W3C has a history of organizing meetups there.
   Daniel: These are usually popular and *packed*.
   Daniel: We could have a short presentation from each vendor, and a Q&A
           session with the community.
   Daniel: Since I'm hosting the Tuesday social dinner, I think it could be
           cool to do it on Monday or Wed, 7-9.
   Daniel: And participation from the french-speaking members of each org
           would be appreciated.
   florian: It means I have to prepare something, but otherwise a good idea.
   florian: Do you think it's reasonable to get the Qs in english, or
            translate on the fly?
   glazou: I think most of the audience will be french.
   tabatkins: But Google doesn't have a french speaker on the WG, for example.
   glazou: Oh, yeah, doing the Qs and As in English is fine, and we can
           translate on the fly if someone can't ask their question in Englihs.
   * fantasai suggests Wednesday, nice way to close the meeting
   [no objections, several people explicitly saying it's good]
   plinss: Daniel, can you give some hotel suggestions?
   glazou: I visited the offices, and have several locations selected.  I'll
           send them as soon as possible.
   * kimberly thinks Wednesday is good, because it means an extra day in Paris :)
   <glazou> ok :)
   <glazou> noted kimberly
   RESOLVED: Do a meeting with the french community after-hours during
             the France f2f.

Module Status
-------------

   plinss: Sylvain wanted to talk about module statuses, etc. at the f2f.
            We have time now.
   <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/current-work
   plinss: So what's ready to advance?
   plinss: MQ is waiting for testing, @style is blocked by one test.

   fantasai: Going down the list...
   fantasai: B&B is ready except for the color transition issue, which we
             can sort out at CR level.
   fantasai: Håkon has an issue on the agenda today for Multicol.
   fantasai: MQ is waiting for tests.
   fantasai: Nothing else can go on the snapshot yet.
   howcome: Is multicol in the snapshot?
   fantasai: Not yet - it needs a comprehensive testsuite first.
   howcome: It has some good tests coming in now, in the incoming directory.
   plinss: So let's get those ready to be submitted and reviewed.
   fantasai: And finish up the open issues in the draft.

   fantasai: Mobile Profile, nobody's working on.
   fantasai: Marquee is in CR, but no testsuite.
   fantasai: Can we request a testsuite from the people who want this spec?
   Bert: I tried once without success, but I can try again.
   plinss: Is anyone implementing this?
   tabatkins: No one on the desktop, and I don't think anyone on smartphones.
   howcome: Isn't overflow-style in there?  Does this mean we're not doing
            overflow-style on the desktop?
   fantasai: Not overflow-style: marquee, at least.
   smfr: WebKit does implement the marquee properties.
   kimberly: It's referenced in some of the consumer electronics specs, so
             they may be able to contribute resources/test cases.
   ACTION kimberly: contact some consumer electronics people about
                    contributing testcases for Marquee
   <trackbot> Created ACTION-401

   fantasai: Paged Media still needs some work to get the spec self-coherent.
   fantasai: I believe MIPC (printer consortium) depends on the CSS Print Profile.
   ACTION fantasai to ask Ming about the CSS Print Profile.
   <trackbot> Created ACTION-402
   fantasai: V&U is mostly stable, the only thing I'm slightly concerned about
             is attr(), but otherwise it should go to LC in a month or two
             unless people have issues they haven't raised yet.
   plinss: Any tests for it?
   fantasai: No.

   fantasai: Cascading we've talked about.
   fantasai: A new mechanism we've talked about in there is a new way to do
             alternate stylesheets in CSS, but nobody seems to be caring
             about that.
   tabatkins: So would you suggest dropping it to advance cascading?
   fantasai: We may consider it, yeah.
   fantasai: There was a proposal for a "default" value and rolling back the
             cascade or blocking inheritance, which we might address there.
   fantasai: But we should probably pull the alternate stylesheets out.

   fantasai: Text probably needs to be split into 3 and 4 at this point,
             because there's a bunch of stable stuff like hyphens and
             text-decoration.
   fantasai: And there's a lot of unstable stuff, like most of text-spacing
             and the whitespace collapsing things.
   fantasai: So I'd like to split that down the middle and stabilize what's left.
   florian: That's a reasonable suggestion, but since it's a large draft,
            I'd like some time to review what goes where.
   fantasai: I'll post a proposed list after talking with Koji and
             Murakami-san about what to keep.
   plinss: Are there external dependencies on that spec from EPUB?
   fantasai: Yes - we'll keep the parts they depend on.  We told them not
             to depend on text-spacing because it's unstable.
   florian: In your message about what to split, can you put reasoning about
            why you want to keep or kick some things?
   fantasai: Yes.

   fantasai: GCPM we all know about.  Hakon just wanted to publish a new WD.
   fantasai: I think John Daggett would know more about Fonts.
   fantasai: I think the main things that are somewhat unstable are the
             superscript/subscript stuff.  I'm not sure what the status of
             the rest of the draft is, but it seems stabler, at least.
   fantasai: So we'll have to wait for jdaggett to give us a proper status update.
   ACTION fantasai: ping jdaggett to send a status update on Fonts to the list
   <trackbot> Created ACTION-403

   fantasai: Box Model needs some very careful review and some syncing with 2.1.
             It'll be in WD for a while.
   fantasai: I believe Anton volunteered for this.
   antonp: Bert and I had a chat about this, and the first step will be to
           sync with 2.1.
   antonp: And then we'll visit new properties and such.
   fantasai: Note that Bert's draft uses some slightly different terminology
             than 2.1 and defines the equivalency, and the new terms are
             less awkward to use.  We probably want to preserve those.
   antonp: Okay, I'll use some judgement about what to keep in there.

   Bert: I said I was going to publish a draft of Template - I haven't done
         that yet, but I'm working on it.
   tabatkins: Template and Grid doing nearly the exact same thing - I think
              the two should merge.
   Bert: I agree - I've done some work on that.  Some bits from Regions,
         some from Grid, I've been working on integrating them.
   Bert: And we should have a discussion in the WG about which features to
         keep and which are redundant.
   Bert: Either at the next f2f or before that.
   fantasai: I think the next f2f we'll talk a lot about layout, so that'll
             be a good time.
   smfr: And there are some google people starting impl of Grid into WebKit.

   danielweck: On Speech, I'm still working through some feedback and some
               issues from the last conf call.
   <danielweck> didn't want to add issues on this conference call, but
                definitely next concall
   <danielweck> will contact commenters again to check their respective
                positions on the near-resolved issues
   fantasai: If the status is addressing LC comments, it should go to CR soon.

   fantasai: Basic UI is in desperate need of being republished - the current
             /TR is a CR, but a lot has changed.
   fantasai: I'm not sure if Tantek has any remaining open issues, but we
             should ask him to finish up and publish an LC.
   <tantek> Basic UI has open issues, but none that require more than editorial
            work as far as I know. The group discussed and resolved issues
            during the previous (Seattle) f2f.

   fantasai: CSS Scoping doesn't exist, so that's the status.
   fantasai: Grid Layout and Regions are still WD.
   tabatkins: We should stabilize Grid quickly, given its gaining a second
              impl, but it may still need some tweaking.
   tabatkins: For Flexbox, it's stabilizing nicely so far. I expect a WD in
              the next month, and LC in a few months.

   fantasai: Image Values has some issues, which I've been cleaning up.
   fantasai: Once we resolve the remaining Gradient issues, we should be
             able to get LC by end of Nov/early Dec at the latest.
   <brianman> any word on proposals A/B, radials?
   tabatkins: Brian asks about the proposal vote on the blog - last I looked,
              they appear pretty split, so this'll probably end up being a
              judgement call.

   fantasai: Transforms/Animations/Transitions are stable, but the specs are
             inadequate for interop right now, and that needs to be fixed.
   smfr: Transforms are also going to migrate to the combined FXTF spec, which
         Vincent is doing.
   smfr: We agreed to publish an EOL WD of CSS Transforms, and point people
         to the combined spec.
   tabatkins: Other than the move, though, we're pretty much just in a state
              where once we fix the spec we're ready to advance?
   smfr: Yes for 2d, 3d still has some larger issues.  Dropping prefixes on
         both may be difficult.
   plinss: Who's working on tests for transforms?
   smfr: We have some that Ted has done, and a bunch of testcases in our
         LayoutTests that need to be converted.
   smfr: So we'll need an effort from vendors to contribute what they have,
         and somebody will work on a suite.
   plinss: Ok.  Remember that we agreed that we want tests to demonstrate
           interop before prefixes can be dropped.
   JohnJan: I think we agreed some time ago that we need somebody to be the
            test driver for a spec, but nobody's been named, so nothing's
            happening.
   <fantasai> +1
   plinss: We'll get back to that.
   plinss: Transforms and Animations?
   TabAtkins: I think it's in the same boat as 2d transforms - everyone's
              fine with the feature set, the spec just needs to be fixed.

   fantasai: Conditional and Device Adaptation seem to be in the early WD stage.
   plinss: Do we want to go over low priority?
   fantasai: I think we should go over some of these.

   fantasai: Selectors 4, there's been some pressure from Moz to get some
             of these to a state that can be unprefixed.
   fantasai: That'd mean pulling out some into a level 5 draft.  Some of
             the selectors are very simple, some probably need more work.

   tabatkins: On Lists, I'm happy with the spec and want to do a WD next week.
              I need review, particular on positioning stuff, but then I'm
              comfortable with LC.
   plinss: I think this information is valuable, and we should track it
           publicly.

   <Bert> Should I add Variables to the list?
   tabatkins: Variables has some issues to be resolved, but otherwise I think
              it will advance relatively quickly.
   tabatkins: I'll request a WD in a few weeks.
   fantasai: We should wait to list Variables until there's a WD.
   plinss: We should have this summary put up on the wiki or somewhere.
   ACTION fantasai to summarize this discussion onto somewhere public
                   (Current Work and wiki)
   <trackbot> Created ACTION-404
   tabatkins: And I'll try to keep the wiki current as things advance.

Testing
-------

   plinss: So, test owners.  Who's going to own tests?
   fantasai: High priority seems to be B&B, multicol, transforms, transitions,
             and animations.
   JohnJan: I can own the B&B test suite.
   * fantasai yay
   howcome: I can own Multicol - we've written the tests already.
   howcome: Our last batch is comprehensive, we think, so we may not need more.
            But if you think we need more, you may be volunteered to submit
            them.
   plinss: I think the existing tests just need to be cleaned up and submitted.
   plinss: So, Transforms, Transitions, and Animations?
   plinss: Has anyone been working on tests for these?
   <JohnJan> I need to leave the call. Sorry. I will begin working on B&B
             this week, though.

   <oyvind> I am working on some tests for animations that could probably
            be submitted
   <oyvind> not reftests, but JS
   TabAtkins: JS tests are probably what we need for Animations anyway.
   plinss: As long as they use test_harness.js
   plinss: Nokia's been working on some tests too.
   plinss: But we need someone to step up and own the testsuite.
   plinss: No one's speaking up, so we need to talk about this later.
   plinss: Anyone who's been working on it, ask around it and get someone
           to commit to own the testsuite, or else these specs aren't
           going anywhere.
   smfr: Ted is willing to be the testsuite owner for 2d and 3d transforms.

Administrative
--------------

   plinss: Next request - invite Ben Schwartz as an IE.
   fantasai: Vincent brought that up - Ben and Divya want to work on the
             spec restyling effort.
   fantasai: And Ian Jacobs suggested the best way to sort out the IPR is
             to make him an IE somewhere.
   plinss: And would give him a W3C account, etc.
   plinss: Any objections?
   RESOLVED: Invite Ben Schwarz as an Invited Expert
   plinss: I'll send out the invite.

GCPM
----

   plinss: Hakon, you wanted to publish an update to GCPM?
   howcome: I made all the changes we agreed to at the f2f.
   howcome: I'm using overflow-style, removed some bits, and added a big
            warning that there may be significant changes.
   howcome: GCPM is a little unusual, it gets less mature as you scroll
            down, but that's noted in the warning message.
   plinss: Any objections to publishing an update?
   RESOLVED: Publish a WD of GCPM

Multicol Spanners and Margins
-----------------------------

   plinss: Let's talk about multicol spanners.
   howcome: I'd like consensus on this.  It's about two spanners respond to
            collapsing.
   howcome: Reading throught eh spec, it's not quite clear.
   howcome: We can take the current text that says spanners create BFCs,
            which is allowed by the text.
   howcome: That's alternative C in my email.
   <alexmog> didn't we vote on colspans at f2f?
   <tabatkins> We didn't resolve, alex.
   howcome: I'd like to go for what the spec currently says, which means
            option C.  I can live with other things, though.
   plinss: My concern is that if someone has a series of elements that span,
           and the number of columns changes, I don't want the margins to
           change.
   howcome: The option C does that, the others don't.
   florian: I agree that the spec currently says C.  Unless there's a good
            reason, let's just settle on that.
   florian: The most important in interop.  C is good, but if you don't want
            it, justify it.
   Rossen: Option C allows margin collapsing between spanners, right?
   Rossen: We're trying to make multicol layout, which is distinct from block
           layout, act sanely.  Option C makes them act the same, so a
           single-column multicol and a non-multicol element work the same.
   Rossen: We're trying to make them act more like floats, which don't
           collapse margins.
   Rossen: Unless we think it's important to have a 1-col element act the
           same as a non-multicol element, we should do something else.
   fantasai: I don't think that was actually the reasoning for this.
   howcome: 1-col multicol does act differently - a column-span:all element
            will still make a BFC.
   howcome: And BFCs collapse.
   * glazou has to go, it's already 06 passed the hour
   kimberly: I've now heard three different explanations of this case, and
             each time I've changed my opinion as an author.
   kimberly: Are we using consistent language when explaining this to the
             user community?
   florian: I think the language in the spec is specific, but non-obvious,
            but if you follow everything through, you get option C.
   * smfr has to run
   <bradk> It's after 10. I have to go. Bye.
   plinss: Do we need more discussion, or concrete examples, or what?
   * alexmog has to go. don't remember how I voted, I think I like "C"
             today, need examples and use cases...
   kimberly: I suggest putting the question to the blog.
   florian: I doubt most people will care/understand about this.
   kimberly: We can sift through for the people who *do* understand, and
             target particular people who'll know about it.
   fantasai: I think people will care, but it's hard to understand.
   plinss: I suggest Håkon set up a webpage with visual examples, so authors
           can understand without talking about BFCs and what not.
   fantasai: Can Kimberly write a blog post?
   kimberly: Yeah, let's do that.
   fantasai: I'm going to be in the East Coast in 2 weeks, and I can spend
             some time in Philly with Kimberly then.
   howcome: I think that's fine.  I don't see an easy solution otherwise.
   ACTION fantasai and Kimberly to write a blog post about multicol spanning margins.
   <trackbot> Created ACTION-405
Received on Monday, 28 November 2011 22:53:41 GMT

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