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Re: [css3-speech] Phonemes: request for feedback

From: Andrew Cunningham <lang.support@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 20:38:26 +1100
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=j9gGjrwF8higNWh-idfM1+m=c23w9baL6EAam@mail.gmail.com>
To: www-style@w3.org
Would having phoneme in CSS3 Speech be practical. It may work well
with a small phrase or a few words, but when you need phonetic
representations of multiple paragraphs of text would it be workable?


On 13 January 2011 14:05, jtchen0901 <jtchen0901@itri.org.tw> wrote:
> I kind of agree with the concerns of Charles.
> The capability of inline usage of phonemes are desired,
> Since the word 'speech' is in the title of 'CSS3 Speech', the phonemes
> property sounds reasonable to be proposed in it.
> I understand the suggestion to remove phoneme,
> but, the existence of phonemes in CSS3 Speech seems not redundant.
> Jiang-Chun Chen
> --------------------------------------------------
> 寄件者: "Belov, Charles" <Charles.Belov@sfmta.com>
> 日期: 2010年12月14日 03:07
> 收件者: "www-style list" <www-style@w3.org>
> 副本: "Daniel Weck" <daniel.weck@gmail.com>
> 主旨: RE: [css3-speech] Phonemes: request for feedback
>> Daniel Weck wrote on Friday, December 10, 2010 8:22 PM
>>> The "phonemes" property [1] described in the current Working
>>> Draft of the CSS3 Speech Module covers functionality that is
>>> arguably not related to styling. The concept of "phonemes" is
>>> inherited from SSML [2], and indeed represents an important
>>> aspect of speech synthesis.
>>> However, the relevance of phonetic instructions in the
>>> presentation layer needs to be discussed.
>>> To bring concrete arguments into this discussion, I would
>>> like to cite the ongoing revision of the DAISY open-standard
>>> (format for Digital Talking Books and synchronized text/audio
>>> publications). ANSI/NISO Z39.86-AI defines a markup grammar
>>> [3] that 'adopts' SSML "phonemes"
>>> to enable the provision of pronunciation instructions on XML
>>> elements that are not within the SSML namespace. In other
>>> words, this specification considers that phonetic
>>> instructions are part of the data layer, not part of
>>> styling/presentation. In this case, pronunciation information
>>> is inlined within the content itself, but it could
>>> alternatively be provided via some non-CSS out-of-band mechanism.
>>> Additionally, the working group responsible for the ongoing
>>> revision of the EPUB open-standard (the IDPF industry format
>>> for electronic
>>> publications) is also in the process of drafting the adoption
>>> of SSML elements for inline use within XHTML markup [4].
>>> Due to the contentious nature of the "phonemes" property in
>>> the current CSS3-Speech Working Draft, and because of the
>>> planned release schedule of both aforementioned specification
>>> works, I would like to strongly urge interested parties to
>>> provide feedback as soon as possible.
>> I won't repeat my arguments from
>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Oct/0466.html as
>> you've seen them.
>> Nevertheless, if phonetics were to be eliminated from CSS, they
>> would need to be added to HTML to permit inlined phonetics.
>> Overloading the title tag with this feature would lead to
>> potentially inappropriate title tags for sighted website
>> visitors.  I say potentially, since phonetics in a title
>> attribute may well be appropriate for some websites.
>> I am also not clear upon reviewing the SSML spec how an HTML Web
>> page would be able link to an SSML file the way HTML links to
>> CSS.   From http://www.w3.org/TR/speech-synthesis/#S1:  "The
>> markup may be produced either automatically, for instance via
>> XSLT or CSS3 from an XHTML document, or by human authoring.
>> Markup may be present within a complete SSML document (see
>> Section 2.2.2) or as part of a fragment (see Section 2.2.1)
>> embedded in another language, <em>although no interactions
>> with other languages are specified as part of SSML
>> itself.</em>" (Emphasis added)
>> But this seems to imply, if I am reading this correctly, that
>> SSML could be embedded in an HTML or CSS document.  I would
>> hope I don't have to repeat the SSML code itself in each HTML
>> document.
>> I realize it is not CSS's concern whether phonemes are inlined
>> in HTML or coded as SSML within or linked to HTML, but unless
>> such capabilities exist or are planned, then my desire for
>> phonetics within CSS have not been relieved.
>> Hope this helps,
>> Charles Belov
>> SFMTA Webmaster
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Andrew Cunningham
Senior Project Manager, Research and Development
State Library of Victoria

Received on Thursday, 13 January 2011 09:38:59 UTC

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