W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-style@w3.org > April 2011

Re: [css3-text] Hanging punctuation for Roman (was script-specific functionality

From: Alan Stearns <stearns@adobe.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2011 10:55:08 -0700
To: John Hudson <tiro@tiro.com>
CC: Ambrose LI <ambrose.li@gmail.com>, Koji Ishii <kojiishi@gluesoft.co.jp>, Håkon Wium Lie <howcome@opera.com>, "www-style@w3.org" <www-style@w3.org>
Message-ID: <C9C49A0C.4424%stearns@adobe.com>
On 4/8/11 10:41 AM, "John Hudson" <tiro@tiro.com> wrote:

> Alan Stearns wrote:
>> InDesign only supports optical margin alignment, which happens to set quote
>> marks outside the right edge of the text and thus approximates hanging
>> punctuation. There has never been enough budget to do proper hanging
>> punctuation...
> Isn't hanging punctuation just a subset of optical margin alignment,
> though? The reason why punctuation was hung was to approximate optically
> aligned marging, by replacing the more noticeable intrusion of white
> space around punctuation into the text block with less noticeable
> intrusion of punctuation into the margin. The idea that 'proper' hanging
> punctuation is something desirable instead of or in addition to optical
> margin alignment seems strange to me, especially since the interaction
> of punctuation hanging with kerning to adjacent letters creates issues
> for the former. For instance, if the character pair A² ends a line of
> text, how do you hang the punctuation? Do you retain the proper kerning
> relationship of the punctuation to the letter, hence dragging part of
> the letter into the margin too? or do you only partially extend the
> punctuation into the margin, keeping the kerned distance to the letter?
> or do you break the kerning to hang the punctuation and create a huge
> white gap between the letter and the punctuation?
> The issue that I have with InDesign's optical margin alignment is that
> while it works pretty well for Latin and similar scripts, it fails
> dramatically for many other writing systems whose glyphs involve greater
> use of horizontal extenders or open counter space. So what I'd like to
> see InDesign support, as a priority, is not hanging punctuation but the
> OpenType Layout optical margins features, which enable a font developer
> to set left and right sidebearing adjustments for margin alignment.
> JH

I think that optical margin alignment and hanging punctuation serve similar
purposes, but hanging punctuation is not a strict subset. There have been
times that I wanted *only* punctuation to hang, and the optical margin
alignment in InDesign is too blunt a tool for that (I get a bit unnerved to
see the crossbar of a capital T spill into the margin). The feature needs
more than just an on/off checkbox.

Perhaps the model to follow should be access to the font feature plus the
ability to manually adjust, like what we have with kerning.


Received on Friday, 8 April 2011 17:55:49 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.3.1 : Monday, 2 May 2016 14:38:45 UTC