W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-style@w3.org > April 2011

Re: [css3] [css21] browser specific CSS

From: Alan Gresley <alan@css-class.com>
Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2011 04:24:36 +1000
Message-ID: <4D9769E4.5070604@css-class.com>
To: Glenn Linderman <v+html@g.nevcal.com>
CC: www-style@gtalbot.org, Brian Manthos <brianman@microsoft.com>, "Tab Atkins Jr." <jackalmage@gmail.com>, "www-style@w3.org" <www-style@w3.org>
Snipped a fare bit.

On 2/04/2011 6:44 PM, Glenn Linderman wrote:
> On 4/1/2011 4:32 PM, "Gérard Talbot" wrote:

>>> If one or more browsers appear to be wrong, make a test case that
>>> captures
>>> the specific issue succinctly and submit it for consideration to the
>>> test
>>> suite.
>>
>>
>> Web authors' contributions to the CSS 2.1 test suite
>> http://www.gtalbot.org/BrowserBugsSection/css21testsuite/web-authors-contributions-css21-testsuite.html
>>
>>
>>
>> Contributions to the CSS 2.1 test suite
>> http://www.gtalbot.org/BrowserBugsSection/css21testsuite/
>
>
> Thanks for those links. I'll try to find time to figure out what I have
> to do to produce a test case.


I was the one that mention a test case. I didn't say to produce test 
cases for the testsuite. Somehow that was inferred indirectly in Brian's 
reply to me. This is what you wrote.


>> I've discovered
>> enough differences in browsers, that I finally decided to code for
>> Firefox, use Javascript to detect which browser, and have a few tweaks
>> for (mostly) IE (and not just IE 6... some of the differences I've found
>> are still in IE9), but also Opera and Chrome. So if users of non-Firefox
>> browsers turn off Javascript, certain parts of my sites look terrible.


This was my reply.


> Do you have test cases? What you describe above does not reflect my
> views and my experience. What may be considered a CSS bug may be a
> browser attempting to follow two or more rules in the specs where part
> of the specs makes other parts of the specs break. Most of this was
> concerning interaction between floats and elements (inline-level and
> block-level) in normal flow.


Do you understand what I write above?


Currently there are implementations that do not follow the CSS specs 
correctly or the spec fails to expressed the desired behavior (some 
behavior is not defined). This is not the fault of the implementers or 
the specs writers but the nature of developing CSS which is only a 
decade old.

By not doing proper testing and being able to isolate a problematic part 
in a test case, many authors have hacked browsers into submission 
(mainly due to ignorance) and this has resulted in what I think Tab 
means as anti-patterns. Please read this.


<http://dbaron.org/log/2005-12#e20051228a>



> It is true that not all _current_ browsers render all HTML/CSS
> consistently, and it is well known that the old ones don't (I wish I
> could say didn't, but they are still in use). I have code that proves
> that, not yet provided here. I haven't yet determined if they all fall
> in the "undefined" areas mentioned. I've recently updated to the latest
> browser releases (I stated that as the first sentence in the thread, if
> you look back) so clearly I understand that browsers do change. And, the
> variations I encounter and am abstractly discussing are regarding these
> latest releases, although I have experience previous releases also, and
> variations there.


See below.


> No one has yet disputed any of my unsubstantiated claims, and the
> internet is full of similar claims, many of which are substantiated with
> code samples; it didn't seem necessary to substantiate things which seem
> to be common knowledge.


What claims are made on the internet is a lot of misinformation.



> Are you disputing any of my claims, or just
> pointing out that I haven't substantiated them? If the former, which
> unsubstantiated item(s) that I have stated do you dispute, so that I can
> substantiate them?


I have substantiated my claims. On a previous message you have this.


>> If one or more browsers appear to be wrong, make a test case that
>> captures the specific issue succinctly and submit it for consideration
>> to the test suite.
>
> How? Where?
>
> In general, I can only tell that the browsers differ in their behavior,
> not which one is wrong. But still, that makes it appropriate for a test
> case, and the CSS enforcement police can decide which browsers are
> guilty, and of what.


Police.... where?


Please view this page (also take a look around).


<http://css-class.com/test/>


The page layout of this page has appeared identical in every browser 
that I can possibly test since April 2008. The only difference is the 
CSS3 enchantments. Only IE6- has the wobbles.


Anyway, why do you think this is the appropriate list to discuss all 
this? This one may help you more.


<http://www.css-discuss.org/>


You will get plenty of help there. You may even see me there. Can you 
please begin a 'browser specific CSS' discussion there since you are 
taking much time away from people here who could be doing other things 
like perhaps fixing buggy browsers (as you so claim).



-- 
Alan http://css-class.com/

Armies Cannot Stop An Idea Whose Time Has Come. - Victor Hugo
Received on Saturday, 2 April 2011 18:25:15 GMT

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