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RE: [css3-ruby] [css3-text] Position values and before/after definitions in LR vertical writing mode

From: Stephen Zilles <szilles@adobe.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 12:16:26 -0700
To: Ishii Koji <kojiishi@gluesoft.co.jp>, Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org>, "'fantasai'" <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>, "www-style@w3.org" <www-style@w3.org>, "'WWW International'" <www-international@w3.org>
Message-ID: <CE2F61DA5FA23945A4EA99A212B157952ABFD5EFAB@nambx03.corp.adobe.com>
I believe that the issue is not related to the baseline; In vertical text the baseline is often down the center. The problem with Mongolian seems to be that it is asserted that "ruby" would be placed on the righthand side of a line, which, since Mongolian is a TB-LR language would be the "after" edge of the line. This would conflict with "before" being the default position. 

I do not have any examples of Mongolian text with annotations. All of my examples lack such. I would like to see examples to have a better idea of the problem.

If it is necessary to introduce new terms for annotation positions, I would certainly prefer "over/under" to "above/below" because, at least, the "over/under" pair relate to "overlines" and "underlines"

I think that making the default value of the ruby position be "auto" is a much better way to handle the language differences "automatically", however.

Steve Zilles


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ishii Koji [mailto:kojiishi@gluesoft.co.jp]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 11:39 AM
> To: Stephen Zilles; Richard Ishida; 'fantasai'; www-style@w3.org; 'WWW
> International'
> Subject: RE: [css3-ruby] [css3-text] Position values and before/after
> definitions in LR vertical writing mode
> 
> The issue is that, in Mongolian, block progression does not match to the
> baseline.
> 
> In that case, margin-before is left, but "before" value of ruby position
> should be right because it's based on baseline, not on block progression.
> 
> I agree with fantasai that we should come up with a new pair of words that
> indicates directions against baseline. And I would vote "over/under" than
> "above/below", as the consistency with the underline makes sense to me.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Koji Ishii
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: www-style-request@w3.org [mailto:www-style-request@w3.org] On Behalf
> Of Stephen Zilles
> Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 1:36 AM
> To: Richard Ishida; 'fantasai'; www-style@w3.org; 'WWW International'
> Subject: RE: [css3-ruby] [css3-text] Position values and before/after
> definitions in LR vertical writing mode
> 
> I agree with Richard, especially since Ruby seems more common on vertical
> text.
> 
> Steve Zilles
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: www-international-request@w3.org [mailto:www-international-
> > request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Richard Ishida
> > Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 6:11 AM
> > To: 'fantasai'; www-style@w3.org; 'WWW International'
> > Subject: RE: [css3-ruby] [css3-text] Position values and before/after
> > definitions in LR vertical writing mode
> >
> > My first instinct is to question whether there is an issue here. Is it
> > a problem that ruby text labelled 'before' will appear to the left of
> > vertical mongolian text?  Before and after refer to the position
> > relative to the block progression, in my mind. It's not about top of
> > line coincidence.
> >
> > I think that above and below are confusing, since they suggest
> > physical locations that are not appropriate for vertical text.
> >
> > (Note that the CSS Ruby module says " vertical-ideographic layout
> > mode, the ruby appears on the right side of the base" - mongolian isn't
> ideographic.
> > That could certainly be made clearer with a note.)
> >
> > RI
> >
> > ============
> > Richard Ishida
> > Internationalization Lead
> > W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
> >
> > http://www.w3.org/International/
> > http://rishida.net/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: www-international-request@w3.org [mailto:www-international-
> > > request@w3.org] On Behalf Of fantasai
> > > Sent: 26 September 2010 15:15
> > > To: www-style@w3.org; 'WWW International'
> > > Subject: [css3-ruby] [css3-text] Position values and before/after
> > definitions in
> > > LR vertical writing mode
> > >
> > > In top-to-bottom horizontal writing mode (English, most other
> > > scripts)
> > and
> > in
> > > right-to-left vertical writing mode (CJK), the "before" side and the
> > effective
> > > top of the line (wrt vertical alignment, glyph rotation, etc) coincide.
> > >
> > > See
> > >
> > http://fantasai.inkedblade.net/style/discuss/vertical-text/diagrams/te
> > xt-
> > flo
> > w-
> > > vectors-tb.png
> > >
> > http://fantasai.inkedblade.net/style/discuss/vertical-text/diagrams/te
> > xt-
> > flo
> > w-
> > > vectors-rl.png
> > >
> > > But in left-to-right vertical writing mode (Mongolian), the "before"
> > > side
> > and
> > > the effective top of the line do not coincide. See the illustration
> here:
> > >    http://fantasai.inkedblade.net/style/discuss/vertical-
> > > text/diagrams/mongolian-vectors.jpg
> > >
> > > The "before" side of a line is to the left. The "top" (ascender)
> > > side of
> > a
> > line
> > > is to the right.
> > >
> > > If ruby-position and text-underline-position use "before" to mean
> > > "on the right side of the line" in vertical text, then we have a
> > > problem where "before"
> > > means
> > > different sides of an item depending on what property is involved.
> > >
> > > Either the definitions should be updated to depend on whether the
> > > block flow is right-to-left or left-to-right, or the keywords should
> > > be changed to something else to avoid a conflict in meaning. I
> > > suggest the latter, since I
> > suspect
> > that
> > > the current definitions are the ones that are typographically relevant.
> > >
> > > However, I haven't encountered any really good pairs of keywords.
> > > (Koji
> > and I
> > > are using "above" and "below" for now.)
> > >
> > > Richard, do you have any thoughts on this?
> > >
> > > ~fantasai
> > >
> > >
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> >
> 
Received on Wednesday, 29 September 2010 19:17:45 GMT

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