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Re: [css3-text-layout] Towards better support of CJK user requirements (was New editor's draft - margin-before/after/start/end etc)

From: Håkon Wium Lie <howcome@opera.com>
Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 21:33:46 +0200
Message-ID: <19457.27674.11209.977941@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
To: "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" <eb2m-mrt@asahi-net.or.jp>
Cc: <www-style@w3.org>, Jaeho Lee <jaeho@uos.ac.kr>, Ning Li <ningli@public2.bta.net.cn>, komachi@y-adagio.com, "KOBAYASHI Tatsuo(FAMILY Given)" <tlk@kobysh.com>, Seiichi Kato <seiichik@microsoft.com>, Masanori Kusunoki <Masanori.Kusunoki@microsoft.com>, yjkweon@keris.or.kr, Yong-Sang Cho <zzosang@gmail.com>, Sam Gyun Oh <samoh21@gmail.com>, sblim@sookmyung.ac.kr, speeno@haansoft.com, jungkwon@haansoft.com, sadian@ksa.or.kr, hykim@incube.co.kr, shik@kats.go.kr, mike@w3.org, ishida@w3.org, bert@w3.org, masao@w3.org, phobos chang <phobos.chang@gmail.com>, selena <selena@cmex.org.tw>
MURATA Makoto wrote:

 > Frankly, I am dissappointed to see recent arguments against
 > margin-before/after/start/end and so forth starting at
 > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010May/thread.html#msg506
 > These properties were proposed for better support of 
 > vertical writing, and the CSS WG did agree to introduce them.

There is no consensus in the CSS WG to add the proposed 30 new
properties. To vendors shipping CSS implementations in constrained
enviroments, each property has a cost. Therefore, resistance to new
property proposals must be expected and not be interpreted as cultural
ignorance. But I think the discussion we have had on this list has
been productive; two reasonable proposals have been discussed.

 > The solution proposed in the the recent argument very
 > obviously fails to satisfy Japanese user requirements (and 
 > probably CJK user requirements).  More about this, see 
 > 2.5 in [1].

In 2.5, we find this requirement:

  Even when the principal text direction is overridden, users will
  expect that the viewer provides reasonable layout using the
  stylesheets provided by the publisher. It should be possible to
  provide stylesheets for both principal text directions. 

To me, it seems that both the proposed alternatives fulfill this
requirement. In Alt 1, which relies on language codes, one can write:

  :lang(ja) { ... }
  :lang(en) { ... }

In Alt 2, which introduces new pseduo-classes, one can write:

  :rtl { ... }
  :ltr { ... }
  :ttb { ... }

Could you explain how these alternatives do not fulfill your
requirements?

Cheers,

-h&kon
              Håkon Wium Lie                          CTO °þe®ª
howcome@opera.com                  http://people.opera.com/howcome
Received on Saturday, 29 May 2010 19:36:39 GMT

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