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Re: [CSS21] bidi, text-align, and list markers

From: Tab Atkins Jr. <jackalmage@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 08:52:59 -0700
Message-ID: <AANLkTilvHmZoYGLsQSDcFBVSWL-yIqW0Z3lGnJsyNQDQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Markus Ernst <derernst@gmx.ch>
Cc: ambrose.li@gmail.com, www-style@w3.org, bert@w3.org, fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net, alan@css-class.com
On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:28 AM, Markus Ernst <derernst@gmx.ch> wrote:
> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
>> Datum: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 16:28:07 -0700
>> Von: "Tab Atkins Jr." <jackalmage@gmail.com>
>
>> On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 11:25 AM, Ambrose LI <ambrose.li@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On 2 June 2010 14:12, Alan Gresley <alan@css-class.com> wrote:
>> >> I disagree to regarding the placement of the list marker. For Boris'
>> >> example.
>> >>
>> >>    * 123 WERBEH
>> >>    * latin latin
>> >>    * latin latin
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> To achieve this, an author can use a child element.
>> >>
>> >> <ul>
>> >>  <li><span dir="rtl">HEBREW 123</span></li>
>> >>  <li>latin latin</li>
>> >>  <li>latin latin</li>
>> >> </ul>
>> >
>> > But wouldn't it be very counterintuitive to have <li dir=rtl> mean
>> > something different than <li><span dir=rtl> ?
>> >
>> > As an uninformed author (i.e., one that is not following this list
>> > closely), I find it very surprising that I'll have to use a child
>> > element when I can set the direction in the list item.
>>
>> I find it relatively clear.  The ::marker is a child of the <li>, so
>> @dir on the <li> affects it, but @dir on a child of the <li> doesn't.
>
> This is certainly true from a technical POV, but for me as an author it does not make sense if list markers switch positions inside a list. Treating markers as children of the <li> element might be sensible to make them accessible for styling and such things, but from a non-technical POV they rather look like being a property of the list than a child of the list item. I agree with Ambrose that it would be more intuitive for markers to behave consistently across the whole <ol> or <ul>.

*All* other properties of the ::marker come directly from the
list-item, though.  Color, for example, or list-style-type (we usually
set the latter on the list container, because it inherits down the
list-items).  It would be odd for just direction to work differently.
It would be even odder, imo, for 'outside' markers to act differently
from 'inside' markers (the latter, presumably without controversy,
obviously pays attention to the direction of the list-item).

Other things in CSS depend on markers acting like they're tied to the
list-item, not the list container.  Frex, if you float something next
to a list such that the contents of one of the list-items get shoved
out of the way, the marker follows.  If you put a margin on a
list-item, moving it away from the content-edge of the container, the
marker follows.

Markers are treated as part of the list-item for every single property
that can possible discriminate between the two situations.  It would
be *extremely* weird and non-intuitive for a single property to buck
that and act some other way.

~TJ
Received on Thursday, 3 June 2010 15:53:54 GMT

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