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Re: [css3-text] emphasis dots used with ruby

From: Kang-Hao (Kenny) Lu <kennyluck@w3.org>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 09:37:33 +0900
Cc: WWW Style <www-style@w3.org>, CJK discussion <public-i18n-cjk@w3.org>, Dennis Chung-Yang Huang <chungh@princeton.edu>
Message-Id: <673C810D-935D-4572-A6FB-9B782BD577EE@w3.org>
To: Koji Ishii <kojiishi@gluesoft.co.jp>
Since the patch for the 'text-emphasis' property just got landed in  
Webkit nightly last Friday, I decided to revisit this as soon as  
possible. (Although I have to admit that this is not such a big issue)

On 2010/11/29, at 14:06, Koji Ishii wrote:

> I agree that such case does exist, but I think this is as much  
> complicated as putting two rubies over the same text. It's possible,  
> but it's more of a graphical representation rather than a regular  
> typography. It would require human to adjust line height, ruby  
> offset, and emphasis marks offset carefully.
> Since emphasis mark offset is not currently in the scope of text  
> level 3, I think we can say this case is for future extensions if  
> desired.
> I can say that the UA may choose appropriate method to layout  
> emphasis marks over the rubied text, but I think it's pretty  
> difficult for the UA to figure it out anyway.

I agreed with everything what you said above, so I think we should  
remove the part that says ruby overrides emphasis dots. See the  

> The current draft says
> [[
> The marks are drawn once for each grapheme cluster. However,  
> emphasis marks are not drawn for a grapheme cluster consisting of:
> - Characters for which ruby is drawn in the same position as the  
> emphasis mark.
> - [snip]
> ]]
> But I bumpep into the following dialog in a manga episode: http://goo.gl/photos/IESeVRnMMw
> I am not a native Japanese but I have the feeling that, according to  
> the current text in the spec, if you put emphasis dots on a run of  
> text with some text rubied, ruby texts without emphasis dots  
> surrounded by normal texts with emphasis dots will look bad. Perhaps  
> Japanese Layout Task Force can provide some input and clarification?

A picture is worth a thousand words. See the screenshot in http://www.w3.org/People/kennyluck/Test/ruby-and-dots 
  . I think what's specced currently is the worst behavior, but maybe  
you have different opinions. Let me summarize some options:

1. Leave the interaction between ruby and emphasis dots unspecified.

We can either,

1.1 Remove the line that says ruby should override emphasis dots and  
add a note saying something like "The interaction between ruby and  
emphasis dots is unspecified in this specification".

1.2 Just remove that line

2. Specify the "emphasis dots overriding ruby" behavior. But this  
won't be forward-compatible for manga use cases, which might be  
implemented in SVG+CSS in the future.

3. Do nothing. (Keep the "ruby overriding emphasis dots" behavior).  
This won't be forward-compatible either.

My preference is 1.1 > 1.2 > 2 > 3.

Also notice that Webkit doesn't implement

/* disable inheritance of text-emphasis marks to ruby text:emphasis  
marks should only apply to base text */ rt { text-emphasis: none; }

yet, but this should be kept as a minimal requirement for the  
interplay between emphasis dots and ruby.
Received on Wednesday, 22 December 2010 00:38:57 UTC

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