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[CSSWG] Minutes and Resolutions TPAC F2F 2009-11-02: size-to-fit for text

From: fantasai <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:36:46 -0800
Message-ID: <4AFC9C0E.8030207@inkedblade.net>
To: www-style@w3.org
Size to Fit for text
--------------------

   Reviewed examples of copyfitting by changing the font size and various past
   proposals for addressing some of the use cases. Intentions can be split into:
     - Size each line of text individually until it fills the line box
     - Size up the entire paragraph as one unit until the longest line fills its
       line box
   dbaron proposes a copyfit property to trigger these behaviors. An alternate
   proposal is to incorporate this into text-justify

   Related behaviors were mentioned: specifically, triggering justification on
   the last line only if it's longer than a certain threshold; and specifying
   a minimum length for the last line, which would trigger whole-paragraph
   justification if the last line were not long enough.

   Conclusion is to add some notes to css3-text and leave it for the next active
   editor to deal with.

====== Full minutes below ======

http://www.w3.org/2009/11/02-CSS-irc
http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/css/20091103#l-275

run-in definition
-----------------

   <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Sep/0126.html
   4.2 and 4.3
   dbaron motions to shift discussion to later, maybe get bz on the phone
   bert would also like more time to prepare
   steve: 9am?
   RESOLVED: move to 9am tomorrow

Size to Fit (for text)
----------------------

   Bert: it's basically to do what John was showing: make each line the same size
   Bert: Useful for titles especially
   Bert: Mostly used in advertisements
   Bert: You make a block of text look like a block of text by varying
         font size until it fits
   Bert: We had a proposals for that
   Bert: It was given with last-line-align
   Bert: and we had min and max font properties
   fantasai doesn't understand why you would want to apply only to the last line
   someone asks where the definition was
   <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/CR-css3-text-20030514/#last-line-alignment-prop
   <fantasai> 'size' value
   fantasai: Why would you want only the last line at the bottom to blow
             up in size, even though the rest of the paragraph is a small
             type size?
   fantasai: It should apply to all lines
   someone argues that it's only one line of text
   because of forced breaks
   fantasai argues that on web pages, which are flex layout, you don't want
            to force breaks everywhere
   <fantasai> the title should be able to adapt to the available space
   <fantasai> and with css3-text's text-wrap: suppress, you can get the title
              to break in the appropriate places as the available space shrinks
   <fantasai> in such a case, if you wanted each line to size up to fill,
              you'd want the sizing to apply to all lines
   <fantasai> not just the last line
   Steve discusses another case where you size up the whole paragraph
   to fill space
   ?
   <dbaron> copyfit: none | size-each | size-largest
   <dbaron> text-justify-last: ...
   <TabAtkins> You'd want a min/max size on the copyfit too, to avoid
               runaway craziness.
   <fantasai> There was a discussion somewhere of a last-line-length
   <fantasai> Which would trigger rejustification if the last line was too short
   Peter: Another case is wanting to trigger justification on the last line
          or not based on how long it is; e.g. if it's 70% of the line,
          justify it, if it's only 2 words, left-align
   fantasai: If I was adding this to the spec, I would add 'size' as a
             keyword to text-justify
   fantasai: text-align: justify turns on justification
   fantasai: text-justify specifies how you justify: which algorithm
   ....
   dbaron: There's been a bunch of discussion of changing the last line
           justification
   dbaron: and then discussion of changing the size of the text.
   dbaron: These seem largely independent
   dbaron: I suggested a copy-fit property
   dbaron: one value is none, which is now
   dbaron: One is size the largest line to fill the space
   dbaron: and then everything else size up to match
   dbaron: the last one is to scale each line independently
   dbaron: explicit letter-spacing happens before this, justification afterward
   ACTION fantasai: Add this stuff as notes in css3-text

   pierre: You often want to do this in certain ratios
   mentions of character stretching and compression for justification
   Steve: There are properties other than size that you'd want to tweak for this
   Steve: Perhaps have a value to add to properties saying how much to tweak
   Steve: or whether to break
   dbaron: Not sure if we want this available on blocks or inlines
   Tab: was thinking of chaining techniques, specify in detail how you want
        something justified
   ....
   Steve: In InDesign the size of the window doesn't change
   dsinger: right, you're designing for a specific size of paper for print
   Tab: I think the techniques we're talking about right now are enough for
        cases where you want that effect. For a movie poster, you'd not use CSS
   Bert: I made a collection of examples... trying to find it
   Peter: I think that's it for the day
   <tantek> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tpac-2009
   <Bert_lap> http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/2009/Santa-Clara.html
   <Bert_lap> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tpac-2009

   Tantek: Color draft?
   Steve: your issue with color, gamma paragraph?
   ...
   Steve: since I won't be here for that discussion
   Steve: Don't break plugins
   Steve: work with them to fix the problem
   <Bert_lap> -> http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/1999/10/copyfit-examples.html justifying by font size
Received on Thursday, 12 November 2009 23:37:23 GMT

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