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Re: [CSSWG] Minutes, 25 March 2009 telcon

From: fantasai <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 05:39:16 -0700
Message-ID: <4A2D0674.6060104@inkedblade.net>
To: www-style@w3.org
Summary:

   - Discussed TPAC planning for the fall and added Test Suites for June F2F
   - WG chairs encourages browsers to follow dbaron's lead and coordinate on
     upcoming CSS feature releases
   - RESOLVED: Add a note to Selectors saying that "Since pseudo-elements are
               not simple selectors, they are not a valid argument to :not()."
   - RESOLVED: Make a joint CSS SVG task force, Doug to set it up, specs of
               common interest to send comments there, mailing list will be
               *public read-write*
   - RESOLVED: Publish updated Working Draft of CSS Template Layout Module
   - Discussed proposals for CSS2.1 Issue 24; resolution needed before updated
     CR publication. <http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-24>
   - RESOLVED: In response to Yves' comment
                 <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0256.html>
               keep grammar and prose as is for 2.1, defer issue on tightening
               up grammar to css3.

====== Full minutes below ======

Attendees:
   Bert Bos
   Arron Eicholz
   Elika Etemad
   Sylvain Galineau
   Daniel Glazman
   Melinda Grant
   Håkon Wium Lie
   Chris Lilley
   Peter Linss

<RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/25-css-irc
  * fantasai waves to Melinda
<fantasai> melinda, I made a number of edits to css3-page, but I haven't
            checked in yet
<fantasai> melinda, don't have net access under linux from here, hopefully
            will get a chance next week
<melinda> fantasai, k, cool.
<melinda> fantasai, I may have a few locally that we'll need to merge in...
<fantasai> fantasai doesn't have email access this week
  * ChrisL if you scribe on irc I can send out the minutes

ScribeNick: fantasai

F2F Meeting in the Fall
-----------------------

   glazou: deadline for 18th of March for TPAC was extended to April 2
   glazou: The number of groups  planning to meet is already above expectations
   glazou: joint meeting with SVG Open?
   chrisl: That was a fallback if the main meeting didn't go through
   glazou: I guess we have to find another location for the f2f
    * fantasai didn't understand that at all
   glazou: We still have time to find another spot for the TPAC
   alexmog: Why?
   glazou: There's not enough room at TPAC, too many groups
   alexmog: I thought we were going to go with SVG Open because the groups
            we wanted to meet with weren't going to be at TPAC
    * shepazu no way... too many groups?
   chrisl: They downsized the venue
    * shepazu oy vey!

Agenda Items
------------

   glazou: I was too busy to read all the comments
   glazou: Anybody have anything to add, please ask now
   Bert: Is howcome's draft ready for publication or not?
   Bert: GCPM or multicol?
   howcome: They're not done yet, will be done next week
   Bert: css3-namespaces?
   fantasai: not done yet
   <glazou> shepazu: can you be on the call ?
   <glazou> for item 5 on agenda
   glazou: anything else?
   glazou: Sylvain?
   <shepazu> sure
   sylvain: We wanted to know if another CSS2.1 draft would be published soon
   <glazou> thx
   sylvain: Also wanted to know if anything about test suite will be on
            the agenda for June F2F
   sylvain: So we know whether to budget in Arron
   glazou: June F2F agenda is open for suggestions
   glazou: please suggest something more detailed than just "Test Suite"
   glazou: Holiday season starts in June, so please plan your hotels early

Follow-up on @import
--------------------

   glazou: Is this resolved? I saw Sylvain follow-up on this on the mailing list
   sylvain: I believed we solved this in Tokyo

Implementation Status Reports
-----------------------------

   glazou: Mozilla and Antenna House posted detailed implementation
           reports to www-style
   <ChrisL> these are for css 2.1, or for 3?
   <melinda> Chris, both
   glazou: I think David Baron has in mind some coordination among browsers
   glazou: wrt implementation of CSS features for the Web
   glazou: I encourage other browser vendors to do the same
   glazou: If Opera, Microsoft, Apple can send this information to www-style
           as well, that would be very cool

:not() and pseudo-elements
--------------------------

   glazou: There's a clarification to make in the spec
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Mar/0193.html
   glazou: Sylvain posted a clarification
   glazou: I think David posted something else
   <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Mar/0195.html
   glazou: fantasai also said that she expects a future version of
           Selectors to accept more in :not() than a simple selectors
   glazou: Sylvain, which proposal do you prefer?
    * fantasai hasn't seen these yet
   glazou: I think David's proposal is more complete
   sylvain: My proposal was just a clarification
   glazou: Is everyone ok with David's proposal?
   <glazou> #The negation pseudo-class, :not(X), is a functional notation
            #taking a simple selector (excluding the negation pseudo-
   <glazou> #class itself) as an argument. It represents an element that
            #is not represented by the argument.
   <glazou> #Note: Appending a pseudo-element to a simple selector results
            #in a selector; selectors are not valid negation pseudo
   <glazou> #class arguments.
   Peter: The note doesn't clarify that a pseudo-element by itself is not
          a simple selector
   fantasai proposese addding a Note that says "Since pseudo-elements are
            not simple selectors, they are not a valid argument to :not()"
   RESOLVED: sylvain+fantasai's proposal accepted

CSS+SVG Task Force
------------------

   Shepazu to summarize
   Doug: This basically started as something regarding transforms and animations
   Doug: David Singer thought it would be a good idea for general coordination
   Doug: It would also involve animations, transitions, other little issues
         that might pop up
   Doug: I'm just suggesting we make a mailing list
   Doug: So we don't have to keep cross-posting
   glazou: Dean Jackson says he's ok with a mailing list, but not a sub-group
   Doug: There isn't really any formaility to a task force
   chrisl: It's just somewhere that we can post to
   Melinda: My question, this has started off as being specific to
            2d-3d transforms
   Melinda: but then became more general
   Melinda: If it was just about transforms, then I wouldn't want to subscribe
   Melinda: If it's more general, maybe discussion of image-fit/image-scaling
   Melinda: Then I need to subscribe
   Melinda: Where's the efficiency benefit
   ChrisL: It's avoiding cross-posting and diverging threads
   glazou: My problem with the separate group
   glazou: is that the wg memebers are supposed to keep track of everything
           that's going on, even if it's not of direct concern to them
   Doug: My concern wrt transforms, especially
   Doug: we are both working on different proposals that may end up being
         the same proposal
   Doug: If people are sending feedback ...
   Doug: The SVG WG has already gotten feedback about our trnasforms module
   Doug: It's got sent to the public SVG mailing list
   Doug: At what point are we going to be able to .. I'm concerned that emails
         going to get sent to both lists
   Doug: separately
   Doug: And we're not going to coordinate
   Doug: For SVG group, we just can't track everything that flows through
         the www-style list
   ChrisL: It's much more efficient for someone from the csswg to subscribe
           to just the joint task force list, and not to all the svg lists
   Doug: For those of us that are subscribed to both lists, it's a big
         savings for the SVG group so we don't have to track everything
   Doug: I'm sure you can have the joint mailing list shoved in a filter so
         it comes to your attention with CSS
   Doug: Also, if you're not interested in transforms you don't have to
         monitor the list for the next few months
   Melinda seems to be ok with this
   glazou: Open mailing list, or just publicly-viewable
   agreement on open
   public read-write
    * fantasai votes for www-svg-css-coord@ or something like that :)
   discussion of what David thinks
   Doug: For specifications like transforms and animations and things like that
   Doug: That might be the default mailing list for sending comments
   Doug: I can understand why csswg might not want that, but just a
         suggestion. SVG group is ok with that
   Melinda: I think if the CSSWG agrees to establish that new mailing
            list, I don't see why we wouldn't want to direct comments there
   Doug: We could have a wiki if we wanted, I dont' think it's necessary
   discussion of names for the list
   <sylvaing> svg-css-mafia
   www-svg-css-coord
   public-fx
   RESOLVED: Make a joint CSS SVG task force, Doug to set it up, specs of
             common interest to send comments there, will be *public read-write*
    * fantasai isn't minuting the chatter

Publishing Template Layout module
---------------------------------

   Bert: I think it's time for an update
   Bert: I think I sent also the changes
   Bert: I removed the part about tabbed layout. interesting, but not so
         urgent... people aren't talking about it at least
   Bert: Also updated the title
   Bert: That's why I want to publish it
   fantasai: I thought it was called Template Layout MOdule?
   RESOLVED: publish updated WD of css3-layout

Wording for Issue 24
--------------------

   <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-24
   <fantasai> It was accepted to fix the problem, but not exactly what
              wording iirc
   <glazou> hi mollydotcom
   <mollydotcom> am I an hour off again?
   <glazou> yes :)
   fantasai: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Dec/0091.html
   fantasai: There were two woriding proposals there
   <glazou> mollydotcom: leave the norwegian TZ :)
   fantasai: We discussed them and Bert wanted to write another one that
             was clearer on how the two interact
   glazou: deferred to next week
   fantasai: to answer Sylvain's question, we need to solve this issue
             before publishing CSS2.1 again, because we regressed the
             text with the last resolution
+Cesar_Acebal
   <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009JanMar/0212.html
   Bert summarizes his email
   <glazou> fantasai, I can't hear you
    * Bert : fantasai is fading...
   fantasai: It shouldn't be limited to selectors
   fantasai: We want all statements to fall under the matching brackets rule
   fantasai: including @statmeents
   fantasai: I don't think the requirement to "match" brackets and quotes
             is hard to understand, it's good enough for now I think
   fantasai: but it needs to apply to statements and to declarations
   ACTION: everyone come up with an opinion on Bert's email

Others
------

   <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009JanMar/0207.html
   <fantasai> glazou, dbaron had good comments on those
   <fantasai> see above
   <ChrisL> it seems to be the usual way to remove things, set the attribute to ""
   <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0256.html
   dbaron's comment:
       I think this could be tossed out as a "not all requirements are
       expressed in the formal grammar".  It's a nice-to-have (and perhaps
       somewhat complicated to get right, so maybe not worth it), but I
       don't think it's a bug in the spec.
   glazou: another issue where the grammar is completed by the prose
   glazou: we will always have these sort of things
   glazou: not worth the time and complexity grammar to fix
   peter: why not fix in css3
   glazou: ok, we leave for css3.. but not 2.1
   bert: which are you talking about now?
   glazou: points bert at url
   Bert: So far I haven't seen anything that I would like to change in the grammar
   glazou: So Yves posted at least 2 issues here
   glazou: Specifically about 2.1, do we want to change something?
   RESOLVED: keep grammar and prose as is for 2.1, defer issue to css3
   <glazou> ==> tracker

Meeting closed.
<RRSAgent> http://www.w3.org/2009/03/25-css-minutes.html
Received on Monday, 8 June 2009 18:58:09 GMT

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