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Re: [css3-content] Replacing ::outside with ::inside

From: François REMY <fremycompany_pub@yahoo.fr>
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 20:51:06 +0200
Message-ID: <418E7242F02645DF8CB031B68F088C27@FREMYCOMPANY>
To: "Giovanni Campagna" <scampa.giovanni@gmail.com>, "CSS 3 W3C Group" <www-style@w3.org>
From: "Giovanni Campagna" <scampa.giovanni@gmail.com>
> 2009/4/12 François REMY <fremycompany_pub@yahoo.fr>:
>> ::outside can be useful in other case that you
>> don't have mentioned.
>>
>> You look at ::outside only from the border/margin
>> point of view, but it can have many other useful
>> things.
>>
>> With ::outside, you can perform a break outside the
>> element (useful if you want to have an element on a
>> new line but doesn't contains the line break).
>>
>> * First sample :
>>   <myElem>Hello</myElem>
>>   myElem::outside::before { content: '\A'; }
>>
>> Is rendered like :
>>   <br/><myElem>Hello</myElem>
>>
>> * Second sample :
>>   <myElem>Hello</myElem>
>>   myElem::before { content: '\A'; }
>>
>> Is rendered like :
>>   <myElem><br/>Hello</myElem>
>>
>> * Last sample :
>>   <myElem>Hello</myElem>
>>   myElem::inside::before { content: '\A'; }
>>
>> Is rendered like :
>>   <myElem><br/>Hello</myElem>
>
> You think in terms of elements, not of boxes. If all properties are
> moved from "myElem" to "myElem::inside", then the visible effect of
> "myElem::before" is the same of "myElem::outside::before" with
> properties on "myElem".

But, it's a bad idea, I think, since I'm not putting my properties on 
'myElem::inside' but on 'myElem'.
If CSS Properties can be moved from an element to another in contradiction 
of what the author say,
we're ready for so complex problems that no UA will have this right.

>> If you have something like that :
>>
>>   <box display-model="ab">
>>       <div display-role="a"></div>
>>       <div display-role="b"></div>
>>   </box>
>>
>> And a CSS like that :
>>   div[display-role="a"]::outside {
>>       margin: 10px;
>>   }
>>
>> It's rendered the same way as :
>>
>>   <box display-model="ab">
>>       <div display="block"><div display-role="a"></div></div>
>>       <div display-role="b"></div>
>>   </box>
>>
>> The display role of the 'inner' div is no more applyable (I think), so 
>> it's
>> not in the display-model of the box element.
>> But it seems the spec of display-model is unclear about how the UA must
>> react if an element in a display-model'ed
>> element contains elements that does'nt enter in the model. But it's not a
>> problem of '::outside'.
>
> What? You're mixing XSL:FO (attributes as properties), Template Layout
> (slots), display-model...

Yes, but only because it's shorter to write in my mail. We can have the same 
in pure CSS.
You've understood what I wanted to say. Even if my markup is completly wrong 
(which it is),
it show what I wanted to say.

If we have DIV::outside in a display model, it's likely to be as an element 
was wrapping the DIV.
With all consequence that such a thing have. Authors expect so (or, at 
least, me).

I find ::inside counter-intuitive, and not as useful as ::outside. But I 
don't want to say your idea is
stupid, it's just not adapted to my expectation for CSS, but others people 
can think otherly, and I
have respect for that, I'm just writing here to say what I think 
personnally, that you are wrong in
willing to replace ::outside by ::inside.

>> Regards,
>> Fremy
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Giovanni Campagna" <scampa.giovanni@gmail.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 7:39 PM
>> To: "www-style" <www-style@w3.org>
>> Subject: [css3-content] Replacing ::outside with ::inside
>>
>>> -- background --
>>> This proposal crossed my mind while talking with Tab Atkins about
>>> ::slot in Template Layout. He wanted to allow margins, and to make
>>> those margins not collapse (sort of "box-sizing:margin-box"). I didn't
>>> like the idea, but I did think that allowing some space between
>>> adjacient slots and their borders may be useful. But I thought that
>>> this kind of space is not a margin, but rather a padding (because it
>>> is all around the box and doesn't collapse).
>>> Ok then, how to specify an external padding? You need two boxes, one
>>> inside the other.
>>> I said to myself: I need the Generated Content features... but what
>>> does ::slot()::outside mean? How shall I specify "display:slot"?
>>> This didn't look very good to me
>>>
>>> -- the current situation --
>>> The Generated and Replaced Content Module introduces the ::outside
>>> pseudo-elements, which wraps its superior parent and all its (in flow)
>>> content. This pseudo-element is not implemented in any UA I tested. In
>>> addition, it creates a lot of difficulty on the author side, because
>>> the wrapping generated box still inherits (like every other
>>> pseudo-element) from its superior parent.
>>>
>>> -- my proposal --
>>> Drop ::outside.
>>> Add ::inside, a pseudo-element wrapping all superior parent's content
>>> (but not ::before, ::after, ::alternate or other pseudo-elements). All
>>> properties apply to this pseudo-element (but their meaning is changed,
>>> because it is inside its superior parent like a nested <div>)
>>> This way, to add multiple borders to an element, you say:
>>> .multiple {
>>> border:1px solid yellow;
>>> }
>>> .multiple::inside {
>>> border:1px solid blue;
>>> }
>>> .multiple::inside::inside {
>>> border:1px solid red;
>>> }
>>>
>>> We may introduce the syntax shorthand "::inside(n)".
>>> Not generated ::inside elements are removed, ie if ::inside::inside is
>>> never referenced, ::inside::inside::inside is the same as
>>> ::inside::inside.
>>>
>>> -- use cases --
>>> All of ::outside, plus those case when an appropriate ::outside is not
>>> available, like for example ::slot.
>>>
>>> Giovanni
>>>
>> 
Received on Sunday, 12 April 2009 18:51:49 GMT

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