W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-style@w3.org > November 2008

Re: standard bug / suggestion: scroll bar placement in frames

From: David Woolley <forums@david-woolley.me.uk>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 08:15:44 +0000
Message-ID: <492E5730.3070709@david-woolley.me.uk>
To: intelnav@yahoo.com
CC: www-style@w3.org

Vlad Simionescu wrote:
> 
> 
> What I get from it is that even if it may not mandate the current
+ behavior, it strongly suggests it. Is there any wording in the standard
+ that suggests placing the scroll bars at the edges of the visible area ?
+ I suppose there isn't, and so no wonder all browsers do as they do. I'm

Some browsers won't use scroll bars at all.  I've only seen the iPhone 
in advertisements, but it's user interface paradigm doesn't look like 
one where scroll bars would be appropriate.

One key point in the reply, that I think you failed to pick up, is that 
there are many different ways of scrolling.  The reason you were 
redirected from HTML is that HTML doesn't even care about how 
information is presented, so has no need to consider scrolling. 
However, in its origins, CSS started from the point of view that it only 
provided hints to browsers, and, in particular, that browsers should 
follow the conventions of the platform on which they were running, both 
to give a consistent look and feel, for that platform, and to avoid the 
need to implement the whole OS user interface (widget) library.

There is a strong lobby, these days, from browser "vendors", to specify 
everything to such a level of detail that web pages look exactly the 
same on every browser, but there are still areas where this would be 
considered overspecification, and, I would suggest, requiring the use of 
scrollbars as the scrolling control is one area where some platform 
dependence is highly desirable.

+ even surprised that you say there are some frame elements which do
+ behave correctly (or maybe I haven't understood you right). I don't
+ remember having seen anything like this.
> 

In the end, I think your real target should be Microsoft, as the 
particular scrolling control behaviour you are seeing is essentially 
that of Microsoft Windows, and you are probably only looking at browsers 
on that platform.

There may, however, be problems for CSS in tracking radical changes in 
platform behaviour, because adopting them may break existing content.

-- 
David Woolley
Emails are not formal business letters, whatever businesses may want.
RFC1855 says there should be an address here, but, in a world of spam,
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Received on Thursday, 27 November 2008 08:16:21 GMT

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