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[CSSWG] Minutes and Resolutions 2008-05-28

From: fantasai <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>
Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 14:29:38 -0700
Message-ID: <483DCEC2.9000802@inkedblade.net>
To: www-style@w3.org

Attendees:

   David Baron
   Bert Bos
   Arron Eicholz
   Elika Etemad (scribe)
   Daniel Glazman
   Dean Jackson (arriving late)
   Håkon Wium Lie
   Peter Linss (chair)
   Alex Mogilvesky
   Saloni Mira Rai
   David Singer
   Jason Cranford Teague

Summary
-------

   Discussed individual modules in charter and what the deliverables are.
   Advocates expressed their expectations:
   Expected RECs
     CSS Namespaces
     Selectors
     Color
     Media Queries
     CSSOM View?
   Expected CRs
     MultiCol
     Paged Media
     Backgrounds and Borders
     Ruby
     GCPM
     Fonts
     Template Layout
     Marquee
     Variables
     Box Model
     Values and Units
     Generated Content
     Animations and Transitions
     Transforms
   Expected WDs
     Text
     Text Layout
     Extended Box Model
     Flexbox
     Grid Positioning
     Lists
     Tables
   WG wants to expect REC for CSS2.1, fantasai thinks it's possible but not likely.

   RESOLVED: Accepted proposed wording for CR Exit Criteria (ISSUE-44)
             http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/actions/44

Full minutes below.
===================================================================================

<RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/05/28-css-irc
<dbaron> I may have to leave at the half hour today.
* glazou too
* anne can't make it
* anne has all kinds of conflicts on Wednesday lately

ScribeNick: fantasai

Charter
-------

   Peter: Sent out charter list yesterday.
   Peter: Got some feedback on Generated Content, Marquee
   Peter: Are there any modules people can't live without?
   Jason: List coincides with AOL's direction
   dbaron: A little upset that flexbox was dropped
   dbaron: We have two prefixed implementations
   dbaron: don't know if they are interoperable

   Peter: I'm concerned that people don't think we will get anything to REC
   fantasai: CSS Namespaces will go to REC. Selectors should be able to get
             there
   dbaron: Color
   howcome: Media Queries
   peter: do we have any implementations for that?
   dbaron: we have two implementations of that, soon to be three
   dbaron: it's in Acid3

   Peter: CSS2.1?
   fantasai: I wouldn't expect that. Good chance we won't make it to REC.
   Jason: Requirements for PR?
   fantasai: complete test suite, for each test 2 implementations that pass
   fantasai: I think we'll have a better idea of where we are with the test
             suite at the end of this year
   fantasai: not in time for the charter
   peter: anything else?
   dsinger: I need to consult with people here at Apple wrt animations and
            transitions and transformations

   howcome: I think MultiCol is ready
   fantasai: It needs work. Some parts are underdefined. I have some comments
             on that, can help
   fantasai: We should be able to get it to CR soon, though
   fantasai: And if we can get together resources for a test suite, to REC
             within 2 years

peter: Anything we can't get to CR?
   fantasai: Text and Text Layout
   fantasai: CR for those would be very ambitious... Paul and I don't have
             time to work on them this year

   <dsinger> I keep wanting to know, for each module, who the primary
             proponent is, and who responded to the survey saying that they
             could put resources on it...is that list available?

   peter: Paged Media?
   fantasai: CR this year
   fantasai: HP is working on a test suite, so shouldn't have a problem there
   fantasai: Will need implementations. We should have implementations for
             all features soon
   fantasai: but the older drafts had many things underspecified, and we
             fixed those up
   fantasai: so defects would be what keeps us from REC there

   <dbaron> I have a conflicting meeting now (hopefully only this week,
            although maybe next week too).  I'll still be on IRC.
   <Zakim> -David_Baron

   peter: Ruby?
   fantasai: I think it needed some edits, not much. Paul won't be able to
             work on it this year
   fantasai: One of Mozilla's devs was interested in implementing. Not sure
             where it's going to go, though.
   Peter: Stuck in CR then

   Peter: GCPM?
   howcome: I think it's useful spec,
   ...

   Peter: Fonts?
   Jason: Good progress there. I think we can get to CR pretty quickly.
   Jason: Our only concern is the nature of downloadable fonts.
   Jason: I don't think we're proposing anything else that is controversial
   howcome: You're putting Web Fonts back in the Fonts specification?
   Jason: Yes.
   howcome: The subset that's implemented or everything?
   Jason: everything
   Daniel: From discussion with Chris Lilley, most font descriptors were
           unimplemented.. panose, etc.
   Daniel: So only a subset, not everything, should be in the spec
   Daniel: Fonts spec will be edited by Chris Lilley, Jason, and John Daggett
   Daniel: Small overhead in getting both WG to agree on publication
   Jason: John and I would be willing to split them back out if merging leads
          to a roadblock
   Jason: I think font properties should be good to go
   Jason: Some issues came up in the design community about being able to
          suppress synthesized fonts
   16:37  * glazou needs to go in 5 minutes from now
   Jason: And being able to style different fonts differently
   fantasai: You can use multiple fonts in the same elements because of what
             glyphs are available. That means you'd style individual glyphs
             differently
   Peter cuts off technical conversation and redirects to charter
   Peter: Expect CR?
   Jason: Yes
   Peter: REC?
   Jason: don't know

   <dsinger> this seems very detailed here, but I am not sure I agree with
             the question.  it falsl into the case "doctor, it hurts when
             I do this" and the reply "don't do that, then" seems appealing
   <dbaron> ok, my 9:30 was thankfully quite short... calling back in now.
   * dbaron wonders what question dsinger was referring to
   <dsinger> dbaron: your (?) question where there was a mix of fonts with
             different intrinsic styles in a fallback list.  but it can wait.
   <dbaron> dsinger, I wasn't on the phone then, so it wasn't my question...

   Peter: Template Layout?
   fantasai: I think CR might be possible, not sure about implementations..
             but there remains a lot of work to be done in that spec
   Bert: I think we can get to CR
   Bert: But I haven't heard anybody talk about implementations

   Peter: Tables?
   fantasai: MS is not likely to have much time to work on it until after
             IE8 releases. They usually spend time on specs right after
             the release
   dbaron: I'm also interested in Tables.
   dbaron: We'd probably want test suite drafts along with working drafts
   dbaron: since it's not about features as about refining definitions
   dbaron: I think CR is a little ambitious, but we should be able to make
           good progress on WDs
   * Bert very disappointed that Alex and David can't promise anything more
   for tables, after al the work done on defining the old size algorithm :-(
   <dbaron> Bert, all that work on the old size algorithm was really only
            a small part of it...

   Peter: CSS Variables
   Daniel: I think we should be able to get this to CR
   <dsinger> safari and who else has this in implementation?
   Daniel: It does not seem to be that complex
   <Zakim> -Daniel_Glazman

   Peter: Box Model
   Bert: Box Model needs implementations
   Bert: of vertical layout
   Bert: It's the same as CSS2.1 for horizontal
   Bert: So maybe CR

   Peter: Extended Box Model
   Bert: WD at most

   Peter: CSSOM View
   fantasai: Need to ask Anne. I would guess REC, but should ask him.

   Peter: Values and Units
   howcome: Kinda sitting there
   dbaron: We agreed to add cycle(), and it's not there.
   dbaron: But I really do want to move this forward
   dbaron: I would hope that we'd have an implementation within 2 years.
           Maybe not all of it. But there are a bunch of features that
           I do want to implement.
   Peter: So commitment to CR

   Peter: Grid Positioning?
   fantasai: I suspect WD
   Alex: I would hope for CR.

   Peter: Lists?
   <Arron> Probably WD
   <Arron> maybe CR if the tests suite is done early

   Peter: Generated Content?
   fantasai: CR

   Peter: Cascading and Inheritance
   howcome: not much changes there. Can probably go to CR
   dbaron: Anything new beyond 2.1?
   howcome: I don't think so
   dbaron: If there's nothing new, why bother?
   Peter: If there's nothing beyond 2.1, why do we add this?
   <Arron> Specificity had to change for CSS 3 selectors didn't it?
   <fantasai> Arron, specificity is defined in Selectors
   howcome: It needs to move forward so other specs can point to it.
   fantasai: They can point to 2.1
   Peter proposes to drop from list
   That seems to be ok

   Peter: Marquee?
   <Zakim> +Dean_Jackson
   Bert: We need to finish that one
   Bert: We have to do that for the mobile profile
   Bert: CR certainly. REC, I'm not sure
   Bert: There are implementations in Mobile, not sure how good they are
   fantasai: I'd aim for CR. Dependency on 2.1 can hold that back

   Peter: FlexBox?
   dbaron: I'd like to at least get working drafts out
   dbaron: CR would be nice, but I'd say working drafts
   Peter: Ok, I will go through list and come up with a new list that
          reflects what we think we can deliver

   Dean Jackson: I think we can get Animations and Transitions and
                 Transforms to CR.

CR Exit Criteria
----------------

   <plinss> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/actions/44
   dbaron: I think in some cases we might have said that if we want
           to count 2 implementations they have to pass the same
           test.. if we're going through the "equivalent test" route
           where the implementations are passing two different versions
           of the same test
   dbaron: If we don't require that, then we need to review the
           equivalent tests very carefully
   <Zakim> -plinss
   RESOLVED: adopt proposed wording for CR exit criteria
   <dbaron> (assuming peter was in favor)

Meeting closed.
Received on Wednesday, 28 May 2008 21:30:20 GMT

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