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RE: [CSS3 Text] Thoughts on hanging-punctuation property

From: Paul Nelson (ATC) <paulnel@winse.microsoft.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 04:37:32 -0700
Message-ID: <49C257E2C13F584790B2E302E021B6F90ECD20C7@winse-msg-01.segroup.winse.corp.microsoft.com>
To: Daniel Aleksandersen <aleksandersen+w3clists@runbox.com>, fantasai <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>
CC: W3C Emailing list for WWW Style <www-style@w3.org>

I think that the use of "edges" is implied in hanging punctuation. If "right" and "left" are necessary I would submit that the following would be appropriate.
  none | [start || end] | [left || right] | both
In the world of vertical text and multilingual documents I don't personally think that left and right should be added. 
The illustrations show normal hanging punctuation. 


From: www-style-request@w3.org on behalf of Daniel Aleksandersen
Sent: Tue 10/9/2007 5:51 PM
To: fantasai
Cc: W3C Emailing list for WWW Style
Subject: Re: [CSS3 Text] Thoughts on hanging-punctuation property

On 2007-10-09, fantasai wrote:
> Daniel Aleksandersen wrote:
> > These are the once I would like to see instead:
> > none | [ start || left-edges || edges || end || right-edges ]
> >
> > As everyone can see I use plural in 'edges' to clarify that it will
> > apply on multiple edges.
> Multiple edges?

Yes, the edge of every line. I call that more than one. Sorry if my English
is a problem for my you. ;-)

> > I also changed it from start and end to left and right
> > edges; to further clarify which edges will get hanging-punctuation.
> > Another reason for doing this is that 'left hanging-punctuation' is a
> > common term in typography.
> The reason for using 'start' and 'end' instead of 'left' and 'right' is
> that it automatically works correctly both for right-to-left and
> left-to-right scripts.

Yes. I actually understood there was a internationalisation reason. But I
still thinks using left and right is better. It is basically the same
thing. But since CSS addresses almost every other direction using left and
right, I though it was best to use it here to. And as I said, it makes
things more simple.

> > Further more I added 'edges'-equal to hanging-punctuation:
> > left-edges right-edges; but faster to write-for simplicity.
> I'm not convinced that this is really necessary; I wouldn't expect to
> set this more than once or twice per style sheet. Also, I'm not familiar
> with any use of "left-edge" hanging punctuation.

See below illustrations.

> > And there is a really To answer a question on the page 'Which marks are
> > affected?': All characters from the General, and Supplemental
> > Punctuation blocks as per the Unicode standard must appear as hanging.
> > The most correct method is to have any punctuation appear as hanging;
> > including ( [ . - and anything else. The only exceptions would POSSIBLY
> > be U+2052 COMMERCIAL MINUS SIGN and any other punctuation mark that
> > appears with U+20 SPACE-or any other space character-on both sides.
> I'm a bit skeptical about applying this to *all* punctuation. I imagine
> all opening/closing punctuation would be affected on 'start' and 'end',
> and all stops and maybe hyphens on 'end-edge', but carets and asterisks?

If you look trough the two character blocks I proposed-try using
http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/block/index.htm-you will see that
it makes sense for almost every character. Except the U+2052 COMMERCIAL
MINUS SIGN and other glyphs that appear separated from other characters
using U+20 SPACE and other spacing characters.

> Can you post examples (e.g. scans) of where this is applied to other
> punctuation, or where "left-edge" ('start-edge') hanging punctuation is
> used?

Left hanging punctuation to the right. (Image courtesy of Adobe.)

Showing left (first illustration) and right (second illustration) hanging
punctuation to the right. Try hovering the two images! (Images courtesy of
Artemy Lebedev.)
Daniel Aleksandersen
Received on Tuesday, 9 October 2007 11:38:05 UTC

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