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RE: [CSS3 Text] Thoughts on hanging-punctuation property

From: Paul Nelson (ATC) <paulnel@winse.microsoft.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 04:37:32 -0700
Message-ID: <49C257E2C13F584790B2E302E021B6F90ECD20C7@winse-msg-01.segroup.winse.corp.microsoft.com>
To: Daniel Aleksandersen <aleksandersen+w3clists@runbox.com>, fantasai <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>
CC: W3C Emailing list for WWW Style <www-style@w3.org>

I think that the use of "edges" is implied in hanging punctuation. If "right" and "left" are necessary I would submit that the following would be appropriate.
 
  none | [start || end] | [left || right] | both
 
In the world of vertical text and multilingual documents I don't personally think that left and right should be added. 
 
The illustrations show normal hanging punctuation. 
 
Paul

________________________________

From: www-style-request@w3.org on behalf of Daniel Aleksandersen
Sent: Tue 10/9/2007 5:51 PM
To: fantasai
Cc: W3C Emailing list for WWW Style
Subject: Re: [CSS3 Text] Thoughts on hanging-punctuation property




On 2007-10-09, fantasai wrote:
> Daniel Aleksandersen wrote:
> > These are the once I would like to see instead:
> > none | [ start || left-edges || edges || end || right-edges ]
> >
> > As everyone can see I use plural in 'edges' to clarify that it will
> > apply on multiple edges.
>
> Multiple edges?

Yes, the edge of every line. I call that more than one. Sorry if my English
is a problem for my you. ;-)

> > I also changed it from start and end to left and right
> > edges; to further clarify which edges will get hanging-punctuation.
> > Another reason for doing this is that 'left hanging-punctuation' is a
> > common term in typography.
>
> The reason for using 'start' and 'end' instead of 'left' and 'right' is
> that it automatically works correctly both for right-to-left and
> left-to-right scripts.

Yes. I actually understood there was a internationalisation reason. But I
still thinks using left and right is better. It is basically the same
thing. But since CSS addresses almost every other direction using left and
right, I though it was best to use it here to. And as I said, it makes
things more simple.

> > Further more I added 'edges'-equal to hanging-punctuation:
> > left-edges right-edges; but faster to write-for simplicity.
>
> I'm not convinced that this is really necessary; I wouldn't expect to
> set this more than once or twice per style sheet. Also, I'm not familiar
> with any use of "left-edge" hanging punctuation.

See below illustrations.

> > And there is a really To answer a question on the page 'Which marks are
> > affected?': All characters from the General, and Supplemental
> > Punctuation blocks as per the Unicode standard must appear as hanging.
> > The most correct method is to have any punctuation appear as hanging;
> > including ( [ . - and anything else. The only exceptions would POSSIBLY
> > be U+2052 COMMERCIAL MINUS SIGN and any other punctuation mark that
> > appears with U+20 SPACE-or any other space character-on both sides.
>
> I'm a bit skeptical about applying this to *all* punctuation. I imagine
> all opening/closing punctuation would be affected on 'start' and 'end',
> and all stops and maybe hyphens on 'end-edge', but carets and asterisks?

If you look trough the two character blocks I proposed-try using
http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/block/index.htm-you will see that
it makes sense for almost every character. Except the U+2052 COMMERCIAL
MINUS SIGN and other glyphs that appear separated from other characters
using U+20 SPACE and other spacing characters.

> Can you post examples (e.g. scans) of where this is applied to other
> punctuation, or where "left-edge" ('start-edge') hanging punctuation is
> used?

http://livedocs.adobe.com/en_US/Illustrator/13.0/images/tp_36.png
Left hanging punctuation to the right. (Image courtesy of Adobe.)

http://www.artlebedev.com/mandership/120/
Showing left (first illustration) and right (second illustration) hanging
punctuation to the right. Try hovering the two images! (Images courtesy of
Artemy Lebedev.)
--
Daniel Aleksandersen
Received on Tuesday, 9 October 2007 11:38:05 GMT

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