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Re: <table presentation="pie"> (was: Re: <table chart="pie">)

From: James Elmore <James.Elmore@cox.net>
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 10:34:12 -0700
Message-Id: <6A8C87E6-01BC-4DE9-A0CD-C269DBD50F38@cox.net>
To: www-style@w3.org

Here is where I have to put my few pennies worth in. If <table> were  
actually used **solely** for the presentation of tabular (arrays of)  
data, I would agree with Dimitry. Since it is also (and mostly) used  
for the presentation of web pages, it is a problem. This problem  
could be overcome by creating another html tag which is used only for  
data (maybe <array>?), or it could be resolved by taking the  
presentation features which make <table> indispensable for layout of  
web sites and making them available in CSS. This is my preference.

(See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2007Jun/0122.html and

   along with their threads, for more details.)

To attempt to use <table> both for LAYOUT and for tabular DATA  
conflicts with the fundamental precepts of CSS and will cause  
conflicts, both in people's minds and on the web, as the sides argue  
which is the better use of tables and why the other should just go  
away. (Fewer Calories! More Flavor! Layout! Data!)

On Jul 31, 2007, at 6:08 AM, Dmitry Turin wrote:

> MB> this should be done ... not overriding tables
> You think, this is non-table ? You are wrong.
> This is __other presentation__ of table.
>                 QUANTITY OF ROWS
>                   1-3      4-...
> numerical          +        +
> chart              +        -
>   "Plus"-es mean,
> that three rows can be displayed both as numbers and as chart.
> "Minus" means,
> that it's impossible to display four (and above) rows,
> because we can't draw 4D-space.

Depending on the kind of data, it would be possible to have different  
colors for the different rows of data beyond 2-D, even beyond 3-D. It  
would not necessarily be easy, or even possible in all cases, so this  
must be considered carefully, but it would be possible in many cases.

>   As much as in MS Excel, 1-3 rows can be dispayed as chart,
> if they contain only numbers (instead of words or embeded html- 
> elements).
>   I think to change @chart to @presentation with "numeric" as  
> default value.
> <table presentation="numeric / pie / etc">

If there were an html tag which really was just for tables of data,  
many things would be possible. The data could automatically be  
displayed just the way a spreadsheet would display it, including  
adding commas and dollar (monetary) signs to money values, aligning  
right for numbers and left for text, lines between data cells, etc.  
Then, too, it would make sense to consider different chart styles and  
how to display the data in forms other than just rows and columns. It  
would no longer be necessary to add '@chart' or '@presentation'  
because it would be obvious that it was just a different style, and  
we already have 'style= ...' and 'style { ... }' to handle different  
ways of presenting information on web pages.

> PNA> Why not "simply" create an XHTML type of <chart> that has a
> PNA> <chart_datapoint> member or something like that?
> MB> bet way to handle this is to use XHTML
> MB>     <body>
> MB>      <chartns:piechart>
> MB>       <chartns:data key="this" value="123"/>
> MB>       <chartns:data key="that" value="456"/>
> MB>      </chartns:piechart>
> MB>     <body>
> (1) Recall about razor of Occam: don't enter entity without needs.
> (2) Because your way is __more__ (comparison characteristic) difficult
> for applied specialists (biologists, technologists, etc). For  
> simple man.
> MB> A table is for tables, not charts.
> PNA> it was not intended to be
> Orthodox-ness. No more.
> Dmitry Turin
> HTML6     (6.3.0)  http://html6.by.ru
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> Unicode2  (2.0.1)  http://unicode2.chat.ru
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Received on Tuesday, 31 July 2007 17:34:23 UTC

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