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RE: List-style-type: armenian in CSS 2.1 and CSS3

From: Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org>
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 15:47:09 +0100
To: "'Simon Montagu'" <smontagu@smontagu.org>
Cc: <www-style@w3.org>, <public-i18n-core@w3.org>, <kode@hotbox.ru>
Message-ID: <023701c7d44a$d6b62c40$6501a8c0@rishida>

I find myself wondering whether we need to specify lists longer than 9,999...

I did a quick search for examples of ordered lists on Armenian script pages recently and found one example using Armenian numbering.  It was created using text and <br> tags, rather than list items and CSS.  It used lower case numerals.

RI

============
Richard Ishida
Internationalization Lead
W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
 
http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
http://www.w3.org/International/
http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/
 
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Simon Montagu [mailto:smontagu@smontagu.org] 
> Sent: 01 August 2007 14:12
> To: Richard Ishida
> Cc: www-style@w3.org; public-i18n-core@w3.org; kode@hotbox.ru
> Subject: Re: List-style-type: armenian in CSS 2.1 and CSS3
> 
> I've filed 
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=390440 against 
> Firefox/Mozilla but I'd like to have some clarifications made 
> about the correct usage before writing or accepting a patch.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_numerals, which quotes 
> no sources, corresponds to the implementation in Firefox and 
> Opera (upper-case characters and only Ւ for 7000).
> 
> http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=1539-5588(193905)13%3A8%3C368
%3AAONSOA%3E2.0.CO%3B2-G
is an article from National Mathematics Magazine, Vol. 13, No. 8 (May, 1939). I don't have access to download the full article, but the URI shows the first page, which includes a table showing lower-case characters and only ւ for 7000.

Furthermore, there are contradictions in http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-lists/ -- the prose description of the algorithm says:

"This is a simple additive system defined for the range 1 to 99999999. 
The digits are split into two groups of four (if there are less than eight digits, the least significant group is filled first). Within each group, appropriate digits are picked from the following list (at most one per column) and written in descending order by value (thousands first). Any characters in the most significant group are then combined with a circumflex accent, ◌̂ U+0302."

This implies that the circumflex has the effect of multiplying by 10000, but the following example uses the circumflex to multiply by 1000:

"Example 1: Decimal 7482951 in lower-armenian is ու̂ն̂ձ̂սջծա U+0578 U+0582 
U+0302 U+0576 U+0302 U+0571 U+0302 U+057D U+057B U+056E U+0561. "

If the example is correct, the system will only be defined up to
9,999,999 and not 99,999,999. Digits from 1000 to 9000 would also have two possible representations: either ռ ս ... or ա̂ բ̂ ... and it isn't clear whether one should be preferred or either may be used.

Best regards,
Simon Montagu

Richard Ishida wrote:
> I have updated the i18n Activity tests for list-style-type: armenian 
> and run the test on latest Windows versions of IE, Firefox, Opera and 
> Safari.  I'd be happy if anyone can run the test on other browsers on 
> other platforms and report back to me (preferably with screen shots).
> 
> 
> Three of the four browsers tested (Firefox, Opera and Safari) 
> supported armenian rendering of list-style-type as specified as far as 
> 9999, as specified in the CSS3 module, except that:
> 
> 1. Firefox and Opera produced only one of the two characters specified 
> for 7000 2. the rendering for the value armenian in all cases uses 
> upper-case Armenian characters rather than the lower-case currently 
> specified by the CSS3 module.
> 
>> From 10,000 onwards the results vary, but none follow the CSS3 spec. 
>> Whether this is ultimately significant is dubious in my mind, since 
>> it seems unadvisable that ordered lists will be over 9,999 items 
>> long.
> 
> Test: http://www.w3.org/International/tests/sec-list-style-type-2
> Results:
> http://www.w3.org/International/tests/results/results-list-style-type-
> armenian
> 
> 
> Can we say that armenian list style type has been implemented for CSS 
> 2.1?
> 
> Since the wording is vague in CSS 2.1 I would argue yes from the 
> algorithmic point of view, since the numbering works perfectly as far 
> as 6,999 - which is a pretty long list already.
> 
> Wrt the upper-casing, this is clearly not intended by the CSS3 spec, 
> which groups the value 'armenian' with 'lower-armenian', and if 
> upper-case is accepted as the default the CSS3 Lists module will need 
> to change.  On the other hand, upper-case is already consistently 
> implemented across at least three browser implementations, so perhaps 
> we should accept that as a de facto standard.
> 
> I'd like to hear from representatives of the browsers on this list as 
> to whether they intend to change their implementations.  And I'd like 
> to hear from IE representatives whether they intend to implement 
> armenian list style types soon, and if so what case they intend to 
> use. I think answers to those questions will help us move forward with 
> armenian.
> 
> 
> RI
> 
> ============ Richard Ishida Internationalization Lead W3C (World Wide 
> Web Consortium)
> 
> http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/ http://www.w3.org/International/ 
> http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/
> 
> 
> 
Received on Wednesday, 1 August 2007 14:45:44 GMT

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